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zippyRN View Drop Down
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    Posted: 27 Jul 18 at 8:09pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by iGRF

No good letting sym sailors try to design assyms, would be like using a windsurfer to design SUPS..

doh.

The guys who design the best assy boats also sailed and sailed sym boats.

you  appear to be unaware that GRF  exists in a faith based  bubble  where facts and science  do not trouble the application of dogma 
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 18 at 12:03pm
Originally posted by zippyRN


Originally posted by Chris 249


Originally posted by iGRF

No good letting sym sailors try to design assyms, would be like using a windsurfer to design SUPS..

doh.

The guys who design the best assy boats also sailed and sailed sym boats.

you  appear to be unaware that GRF  exists in a faith based  bubble  where facts and science  do not trouble the application of dogma 


You have a problem with faith zippy?
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zippyRN View Drop Down
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Posts: 437 		Post Options Post Options   Quote zippyRN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 18 at 11:36pm
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 18 at 6:39am
The guys who designed asymmetric Spinnakers could see what happens to symmetric Spinnakers when speeds increased to the point where sailing near to ddw wasn't worthwhile anymore. Other people appear to have just seen the set up and added it to boats far to slow to benefit. On these boats it makes things easy to use (a big extra jib) which is where taking a beginner out becomes easy. In the end, though, I find these boats frustrating, and I think others do too, hence swinging poles to try and get round the original lack of suitability.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 18 at 9:09am
Originally posted by Dougaldog

we were working on a project that would  see me sailing at the Merlin and RS 400 Championships with a 'new' crew - someone reasonably new to the sport but who was keen to get involved.
How many sports do you pack someone off to a national championships who is new to sport?What conclusions could you possibly make about the boats? 

Don't get me wrong, I agree asymmetric can be more accessible to get a downwind sail up for absolute beginners. Generally it's easier to get a crew for a 200 or 400, as the unique skills are less. But in terms of getting a crew for a national event, I'm not sure this stacks up. So I just don't get how this relates to the sudden drop we see in the fireball fleet. Unless you are seriously proposing that 50% of the fireball national fleet has been made up by helms picking up never before fireball crews just for nationals, and then suddenly in 2018 all those boat realised it was easier to do this in an asymmetric?  I wouldn't rule it out for a long term decline, from club racing and open sailing up, but this sounds far fetched to be attributed to just this year. 

Clashes with school holidays, clashes with similar classes, other week long regattas in the year, poor venue choice, poor social programme, sudden increased cost can all lead to a sudden drop in attendance. 

Originally posted by Rupert

Other people appear to have just seen the set up and added it to boats far to slow to benefit. On these boats it makes things easy to use (a big extra jib) which is where taking a beginner out becomes easy. In the end, though, I find these boats frustrating, and I think others do too, hence swinging poles to try and get round the original lack of suitability.

I don't get this, it is the type of waters and courses which make asymmetric frustrating, not the size or speed of the boat. Asymmetric are superb on slower boats, but you just have to realise that the boat is going to be better for fleet racing on open waters. And swinging poles are still a stupid idea. The thing that makes asymmetric sailing good downwind in fleets is how the fleet spreads across the course. A swinging pole is counterproductive to this. Plus if everyone has it, and uses it in the same way, it just becomes a chore. 

Just look at the huge popularity of this type of boat in 200s, 400s, fevas, then all the many sportsboats.
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Posts: 1532 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Pierre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 18 at 9:17am
Originally posted by Rupert

The guys who designed asymmetric Spinnakers could see what happens to symmetric Spinnakers when speeds increased to the point where sailing near to ddw wasn't worthwhile anymore. Other people appear to have just seen the set up and added it to boats far to slow to benefit. On these boats it makes things easy to use (a big extra jib) which is where taking a beginner out becomes easy. In the end, though, I find these boats frustrating, and I think others do too, hence swinging poles to try and get round the original lack of suitability.

Totally agree with you Rupert. 
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 18 at 10:09am
Mozzy, picture a handicap race on the sea, medium to light winds, like we often get. Go round the top mark and head downwind. Slow symmetric boat can choose, go straight there, or more likely, head up a few degrees to get flow over the kite, and off you go. Slow asymmetric kite, once hoisted, luff to get kite to fill, spend the whole leg trying to bear away whilst keeping speed up, but the boat slows, you have to luff again to keep the sail pulling. For me, that is very frustrating. The boat has been designed to deliberately have an area I can't sail in down wind, but the only tactic is trying to sail low, because the extra distance isn't made up for by the gain in speed.

The effect is certainly less in a nimble boat like the 200, and in "champagne" conditions there is nothing more fun than bearing off in a big gust and going like a train, even in something like a Feva. But for me (especially sailing on a pond, where the effects are magnified) the frustration and lack of tactical choice in boring weather puts me off.

If the wind is right, I can always crew, rent or borrow a 2000 or the like and have lots of fun.
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 18 at 10:14am
Should have said, fleet racing makes more sense, as everyone has the same issues to solve, so bringing the tactics right back into it.

Of course, none of the has anything to do with the Furball nationals turnout, which is much more likely to be to do with time pressures on holidays if people are going to the pre worlds and worlds. Easy enough to check that by looking at who is missing compared to the last couple of years and finding out if they are off to play later in the year.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 18 at 11:25am
Sounds like you're frustrated with handicap racing, not asymmetrics on slow boats.

Essentially, you have two different people playing two different games, defined by different rules of what is possible in each of their craft. Gybing angle for VMG is just point of difference, but if you look closely you will see hundreds of subtle differences. It's a road to disappointment if you level that frustration at the boat.


Edited by mozzy - 29 Jul 18 at 11:26am
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 18 at 12:00pm
Originally posted by Dougaldog

Some interesting thoughts here and for once a quite sensible dialogue.... that issue of accessibility is something that was/is worth exploring. Just as Dinghy Mag expired, we were working on a project that would  see me sailing at the Merlin and RS 400 Championships with a 'new' crew - someone reasonably new to the sport but who was keen to get involved.

Back then we liked multi-part articles so this was going to come in 4 linked pieces; Preparation, the two events and a wrap up with conclusions. The Merlin, with the twin pole set up is probably easier than maybe the Fireball, which was still tied to a single pole set up.

Sadly, getting this sort of writing into print was hard then and is even harder now, yet it is just exactly where the media could play a role. But that inbreed, class specific tribalism that dominates current thinking works against any form of more informative writing.

But accessibility IS an issue - I saw a great example being played out at the weekend, a sailor out in the wrong boat because that was what he had been told was  the 'hot' class to be in....

D/Isle of Wight

Completely agree that accessibility is a major issue, but as Mossy says that does not mean that one has to be able to be competitive at national level. 
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The history and design of the racing dinghy.
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