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    Posted: 21 May 18 at 4:55pm
2547: I'm not ignorant of the Taser,  I've never sailed a snipe but I know what they look like and that they're popular. My point was about introducing new boats. 

The UK is unique in that RS have been able to introduce two popular two person hiking asymmetric boats. But take out asymmetric from that sentence and it's still true. It's not as if I see many new two person hiking classes elsewhere either. 

But whilst the examples you give are popular, is it not still true that single trapeze is the most popular type of two person boat (in terms of nationals racing) outside of the UK? 


Edited by mozzy - 21 May 18 at 4:58pm
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 18 at 6:45pm
Mozzy, you said. 

Other countries seem not to accept two person hiking boats, it's just a no go.

This is not true, they accept them big time, just not the new stuff from overseas. 
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 18 at 7:28pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by turnturtle

200 300, 500 600 single handedly marginalising the entire sport.</span>

of that list, 3 would be in my top ten dinghies of all time....  weird huh?</span>


One word.. Freshwater

They wouldn't be if you had to sail on the sea in them.

That 600? Guy Farrant ex European champ in some dinghy or other, son of World Champ 505 , couldn't wait to ditch it.

Roger Tushingham, not long since fresh from an FD Olympic campaign and I quote, "got in it couldn't make it go, got out."

Now if these Guys can't, who can, other than ex squaddie pondy kids.. no way to promote a sport.. all academic now, you can buy them for 1500 quid with foils I nearly did this winter, just to get my hands on the foils.

When you had them you swam, and then you swam some more, but you were thinking, yeah but these are cool boats cos you have to be really good to use them and one day maybe..

Crap marketing psychology.. used to use it all the time in the 80's and 90's and look what it did for windsurfing.


600 would be easier on the sea or estuary sailing mate... just pick your days and build up the wind strength and sea state in consistent breeze rather than inland on/off shifty switchy twitchy stuff.
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 18 at 7:31pm
There's one in our club at the moment vanishing over the horizon as long as the wind stays around or below force 4. Meanwhile I'm currently ecstatic with my latest choice, the day will dawn when I'll be flying by his upended wreckage once the wind crests 20.
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 18 at 7:31pm
Originally posted by Chris....It would also seem that the skiffs don't represent grass-roots sailing as well as the 470 does. [/QUOTE


That's the 'grass roots ' where a hull has a competitive life of 'several weekends'?


That's the 'grass roots ' where a hull has a competitive life of 'several weekends'?
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 18 at 7:40pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

....- it's absolutely disgusting that there isn't a keelboat in the line up.  It's even more dumb as f**k to introduce discussions around gender and weight and then discount a (mixed) keelboat crew as a viable solution.  

And if anyone says price... hmm, I reckon you could get a suitable keelboat all in for less than the price of Devoti Fantastica... and that's before you split the bill by crew headcount to give a fair price comparison.

This whole thing stinks of gravy trainers from top to bottom.... IOC, WS, RYA, Bethwaite, Laser, Neil Pryde and sad to say it, the Finn Class... all at it to get their jugs topped up.  


The price of decent OD keelboat would not really dent any olympic budget.
The real money goes in travel costs, coaches, time not working, drugs.....
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 18 at 8:00pm
Originally posted by 2547

Mozzy, you said. 

Other countries seem not to accept two person hiking boats, it's just a no go.

This is not true, they accept them big time, just not the new stuff from overseas. 

I said that in the context of the 200 and 400 not being successful outside the British Isles. The fact they have had limited success with 500 and 800 suggests it was more the hiking that was the issue rather than asymmetric. This is further backed up by the success of asymmetrics sports boats too. I just think the dislike for the 200 and 400 abroad is hiking, not the asymmetric. 

I'm not sure the existence of the taser and snipe change my view on this. Both of which are established classes. But I have limited knowledge to be certain. Are there any new two person hiking boats without a asymmetrics? Do you know of any countries which support two person hikers in greater numbers than trapeze boats? 

Still, I don't think we're disagreeing regarding the inclusion of the 470, it represents a lot of grass roots racing.  But the way you framed the UK scene as a vote against the 49er because of the lack of skiffs, when there is also a lack of single trapeze symmetric boats (470 linked) is flawed. The UK has a large asymmetric scene which i feel would relate to the 49er. 
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 18 at 8:15pm
Graeme - given the U.K. is predominately sub 12 knots, the 600 hits a sweet spot that MPS has been able to improve on.

More than 20 knots ?? Go windsurfing ...



Edited by turnturtle - 21 May 18 at 8:16pm
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Posts: 245 		Post Options Post Options   Quote KazRob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 18 at 8:24pm
The UK seems to have a very unusually active range of dinghy classes compared to other countries and what works here is not always translatable even across the channel it seems.
I'm not an expert by any means but in the US hiking boats such as the Club 420, Vanguard 15, Flying Junior, Lightning etc are popular, with pockets of 505s around but from what I can see dinghies aren't such a big part of sailing as they are here. In continental Europe there seems to be lots of older established classes still active such as the Pirat, O-Jolle etc that no doubt look as odd to us as N12s must look to them.
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 18 at 9:07pm
Hiking vs trapeze, skiff vs non-skiff must be far more to do with location than nationality? Big rigs and trapezes are far less forgiving of gusty locations and short course legs (i.e. small inland lakes and rivers) but come into their own on open water with steady winds and long courses. On the lake I sail on near Manchester we see very few trap boats and the few we do see struggle to sail to their handicap. RS400s, Solos and Lasers are by far the biggest fleets. Even the Blaze is not really in it's element as it doesn't get the opportunity to stretch it's legs.

Edited by Sam.Spoons - 21 May 18 at 10:06pm
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