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    Posted: 21 May 18 at 9:52am
Originally posted by Chris 249

 
But skiffs aren't popular, so why should they replace dinghies?  I think you'll find there's only two skiffs in the 20 biggest nationals fleets in the UK, whereas in the USA the only "popular" skiff has the 23rd biggest nationals fleet. I think they are less popular than than in most other countries.
(edit: I know this quote was in response to a suggestion to remove 470, laser and RS:X, which I am not arguing for, but just picking up on your point that skiffs aren't popular, whilst also suggesting the 470 is representative of club / amateur sailing)

I'm not sure there's such a hard and fast differential between skiff and other boats. Planes upwind, planes downwind, faster than the wind downwind? It's a little murky. 

When I see 49ers racing I see asymmetrics. Over the last ten years the 200 has been by far the most popular adult boat in nationals, whilst the feva is the most popular junior two person, and the 29er is the most popular youth boat, full stop. So, my feeling is that whilst true skiffs (if there is such a thing) may not be popular at amateur level, asymmetric sailing certainly is, and the 9ers are a great representation of that at the Olympics. 

Besides, there is only one single trapeze symmetric in the top 20 of UK classes, the Fireball. So which popular classes is the 470 representing? I think that GP14, Merlins, Cadets, Scorpions and Mirror would watch 470 sailing and see it as directly related. 

Originally posted by Chris 249

I believe that Jim C has noted several times that good 29er sailors he knows end up sailing 200s; if skiffs were the aspirational type for them surely they'd be sailing 800s or 49ers.

Well, when we got the 200 it was because the 200 we could chop and change crews and helms far easier. It's something you can pick up for FED week and the Nationals and be right up to speed. It's accessibility meant you can find club fleets for far more local racing. It's also easier to get competitive loan boats as there is a lot less to go wrong with a 200 which is probably the largest reason for the majority of 18-25 ex 29er sailors are in them. Many 200s are owned by parents who club sail them through the year, handing them over to children for summer championships. My conclusion is it's not a rejection of 'skiffs'  but a compromise to get accessible asymmetric sailing on a budget. 

I probably would have done more 800 sailing earlier, but I found the centre main off putting. Hopefully now the class has changed this we will see more 29er sailors transitioning directly in to 800s as they have all the skills to give the old timers a thrashing. My wife and I did a bit of sailing in a 29er straight out of uni, as the family still had one (with me crewing). If the 800 had off boom sheeting back then we might have got one, with me still crewing, rather than 200. 


Edited by mozzy - 21 May 18 at 10:52am
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 18 at 10:10am
This mixed event..

You should have to build your own boat, Farr 3.7 obviously Men and Wimmen (lets see them handle a G clamp and glue).

All you get given after qualification are a flat pack and plans.

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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 18 at 11:10am
Originally posted by Oli

if we are going to have it in the five ring circus then it should be difficult, exciting boats against top class athletes.

Why?  
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 18 at 11:19am
Originally posted by mozzy

 

I'm not sure there's such a hard and fast differential between skiff and other boats. Planes upwind, planes downwind, faster than the wind downwind? It's a little murky. 

It's interesting to get your inside viewpoint. I was using the example of what happens down here, where the difference was very clear for eons, and is generally still pretty clear in most cases. No one here would confuse a 505 or Sharpie with a 12 Foot Skiff or an 18. And the evidence is clear that most people from the areas where the traditional Skiff classes don't work do NOT aspire to skiffs; the "aspirational" class is generally the fast dinghies (and by that I mean ones which had no shared heritage with the Skiff classes hers).

Personally, I'd say one can make a pretty good case about how to delineate skiffs from dinghies, but I'm trying to stay out of that since it's an area where people get irate if one wants to point out what years and years of historical research and interviews with designers etc have shown. For example, Phil Morrison was pretty clear that the 200 came from the National 12/Merlin line of development which has had very, very little input from skiff classes, if any. 

While it's an interesting point about the 200 being an accessible way to sail assys, to a large extent such classes are only really popular in just one country in the entire world. Since you won't find a similar class in the USA, for example, there are 600+ centreboard monos with symmetrical kites (420s, Lightnings, Buccaneers etc) and only 80 with assys (9ers and Int 14s). 

The Germans had a total of 70 entries in last year's 29er, 49er, and 49erFX championships, in comparison to 128 in the 420 and 470 nationals. Given that there's more symmetrical classes in Germany (Korsars, FDs, H Jolle etc) it would seem that even there the syms reign despite a strong national 29er fleet. 

Given that skiffs seem to be a minority even after being in the Olympics for 20 years and the Youth Worlds for almost that long, it would seem that there's little evidence that most people really aspire to sail them. It would also seem that the skiffs don't represent grass-roots sailing as well as the 470 does.


Edited by Chris 249 - 21 May 18 at 12:25pm
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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 18 at 11:30am
Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by Oli

if we are going to have it in the five ring circus then it should be difficult, exciting boats against top class athletes.

Why?  


Because you don't go to the Olympics to compete against the worst each country has to offer.  Yes skill levels vary from country to country but they send their best, and we should expect the best to be able to sail the most difficult boats.
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 18 at 11:45am
Originally posted by Oli

Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by Oli

if we are going to have it in the five ring circus then it should be difficult, exciting boats against top class athletes.

Why?  


Because you don't go to the Olympics to compete against the worst each country has to offer.  Yes skill levels vary from country to country but they send their best, and we should expect the best to be able to sail the most difficult boats.

Do we expect track athletes to run on the most difficult terrain, or what about field athletes... do they throw the most difficult javelins and shotputs?  

Maybe the level of pollution in Qingdao or Guanabara Bay would have made for a good 'difficult conditions' to test the true metal of the swimming athletes?  

... And I'm sure the Hockey Women would happily play with a lead ball and some 'difficult sticks' to truly see how good they really were.

Or alternatively the competition could actually be reflective of the sport as a whole - in which case, on participation numbers alone - it's absolutely disgusting that there isn't a keelboat in the line up.  It's even more dumb as f**k to introduce discussions around gender and weight and then discount a (mixed) keelboat crew as a viable solution.  

And if anyone says price... hmm, I reckon you could get a suitable keelboat all in for less than the price of Devoti Fantastica... and that's before you split the bill by crew headcount to give a fair price comparison.

This whole thing stinks of gravy trainers from top to bottom.... IOC, WS, RYA, Bethwaite, Laser, Neil Pryde and sad to say it, the Finn Class... all at it to get their jugs topped up.  



Edited by turnturtle - 21 May 18 at 11:49am
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Posts: 245 		Post Options Post Options   Quote KazRob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 18 at 11:59am
Originally posted by turnturtle


Do we expect track athletes to run on the most difficult terrain


Well I'd certainly like to see fell running in the Olympics. A hundred times more interesting than watching them go round and round that track :-)
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 18 at 12:10pm
Originally posted by Oli

Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by Oli

if we are going to have it in the five ring circus then it should be difficult, exciting boats against top class athletes.

Why?  


Because you don't go to the Olympics to compete against the worst each country has to offer.  Yes skill levels vary from country to country but they send their best, and we should expect the best to be able to sail the most difficult boats.

But there's no reason why sailing an "easy" boat should be seen to be in any way inferior to sailing a "difficult" boat. There's no real correlation between the difficulty of sailing a craft and the difficulty of winning in it. Some windsurfers can be so hard to sail that Ben Ainslie probably couldn't even get the board moving, but that doesn't mean he's a crap sailor. And as TT notes, no other sport puts Olympians on the hardest kit to use. The Olympic cycling events are on bikes that almost anyone can ride (maybe with adjustments), not on 10 ft tall monocycles. Football and running are easy, but people still watch the World Cup and no one thinks that beating Usain Bolt is easy.





Edited by Chris 249 - 21 May 18 at 12:24pm
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 18 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

The Olympic cycling events are on bikes that almost anyone can ride (maybe with adjustments),

exactly - and there's nothing wrong with progress and development, I don't think anyone is suggesting the Olympics needs running with wooden tillers so those with €500 1980's sh*tters can still compete if they were good enough....

Progress comes in many formats:
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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 18 at 12:31pm
Originally posted by turnturtle


Do we expect track athletes to run on the most difficult terrain, or what about field athletes... do they throw the most difficult javelins and shotputs?  

Maybe the level of pollution in Qingdao or Guanabara Bay would have made for a good 'difficult conditions' to test the true metal of the swimming athletes?  

... And I'm sure the Hockey Women would happily play with a lead ball and some 'difficult sticks' to truly see how good they really were.



Fell running is a different sport to track running, athletics is uses standard metric measurement to attain who is best, and is a popular sport to televise due to its simplicity to understand, they're not looking to make it glitzier or more exciting, they have hurdles for that.

im sure they dont use the easiest / lightest javlins or shotputs.

in all honesty i don't give a monkeys about what they select as it has almost zero correlation to what i do at the weekend, which is to either sail with my family or friends in various boats from picos to rs800's in a few short races for fun.

just wish theyd be honest with the whole process and call it for what it is, a pay day and nothing to do with grassroots


Edited by Oli - 21 May 18 at 12:41pm
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