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Dynamic ratings from Sailracer. |
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Loyboy 
Newbie 
Joined: 09 Oct 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 8 |
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 Topic: Dynamic ratings from Sailracer.Posted: 30 Dec 17 at 5:18pm |
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I finished 25th in Solo 186 at the Inland Championship in 2010 in a fleet of 97. Albeit with a modern rig and a hull seriously wet and dried. I also hit the right corners at Rutland.
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Sam.Spoons
Really should get out more 
Joined: 07 Mar 12 Location: Manchester UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 3401 |
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Posted: 30 Dec 17 at 5:38pm |
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Good effort, where would you have expected to finish in a brand new Winder?
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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
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Dougaldog
Far too distracted from work 
Joined: 05 Nov 10 Location: hamble Online Status: Offline Posts: 356 |
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Posted: 30 Dec 17 at 5:38pm |
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Gosh ZippyRN- I'd forgotten about that! Sadly, I've not seen that much going on regarding the classic Finn scene so haven't any visibility of what they're doing with PYs (though sadly I'm not hearing 'good' stories coming from there). There is much more going on in the lowrider classic Moths, but as more boats come on line, they're going to have to address the PY 'thing' - my guess is that this will come to a head it 2018. As for the classic Merlins, I think that some of you are being overly generous to them with respect to their setting of classic PYs. Put bluntly, it's a messy dogs dinner! I worked with Miles James and the 'woodie revival' fleet (that AFAIK is still un-recognised by the class) and developed a far more intuitive list of PYs that have been used successfully elsewhere, but as this was something of a private venture, it has yet to get any wider distribution. My guess is that given the mindset within the class, it will end up just being used at the better but not class sanctioned events. Handicapping classics is a topic all by itself and is very different - you may well be looking (as an example) to reward boats that retain more of the features that would have been present when they were first registered, whilst penalizing those who've put state of the art raking rigs onto a 1950s hull, or you might have a different objective in mind. But all this has nothing to do with the OP and the attempts by SR and others to try something different and it is at best disingenuous to somehow try to make one scenario apply to the other. I can but refer you back to that 'other' article once more (yes, I know, 'I am not a number' gave a few of you a bad bout of indigestion ) and the historical point that handicapping was originally time on distance, which was considered back then to be better than time on time. So what if SR could, with some clever programming and the power of modern systems, now make ToD work? I for one (and I have no association with SR, the man from Kent, or anyone else for that matter) would applaud them for at least trying. It may not be the solution, it may not even be a step in the right direction, but at least they are trying something different and for that we should sit back and wait to see what they can - and cannot do. Doing the 'other thing' means just sitting back and doing nothing - which as my next article, due out very shortly will highlight, just isn't an option any longer! Dougal/Ventnor/Isle of Wight
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Dougal H
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Guests
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Posted: 30 Dec 17 at 6:38pm |
I think the posters here have been unfairly lead astray by the SR article itself which does talk about older boats in it's introduction. I am the worst for long ramblings posts, but I do think the SR article conflates a few issues. The last four sections are touching on further topics and the language is very wishy-washy. It could be summed up as: Classes perform differently in relation to one another for a given leg depending true wind angle and strength. Having a single PY number which covers all courses and conditions is therefore not appropriate. By reviewing historic data SR were able to group similar legs to spot trends in how classes were performing. This analysis suggests that performance is dictated by the 'mode' a class sails. I.e. foiling, displacement, planing, apparent wind. This phenomenon is best illustrated by some top fireball sailors, who when the course and conditions don't allow them to access higher performance modes, struggle to compete to their handicap. To allow different classes to remain competitive across a range of conditions and courses it is possible to handicap per leg by classifying the mode each class has the potential to sail in for each given leg. Time can be corrected per leg and an overall corrected time produced which is dynamic for course and wind strength. This is made possible by real time met data and GPS allowing application of the dynamic handicap. Applying the dynamic handicaps to recent sail-juice series we see the results subjectively fall better in line with our expectations for the sailors involved. The rest of the article does seem to be throwing science / stats words in to build confidence rather than explain how things are actually calculated. Personally I'm a little sceptical of the 'mode' talk. I'd like to see evidence of the modes. And even then, why not just have a table of handicaps for each class in a matrix of true wind angle and wind speed pulled out from historic GPS data?
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423zero
Really should get out more
Joined: 08 Jan 15 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3420 |
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Posted: 30 Dec 17 at 7:57pm |
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Thanks Mozzy,
Don't like drifting threads, thought I had read "new versus old" somewhere.
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ian.r.mcdonald
Far too distracted from work
Joined: 24 Feb 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 440 |
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Posted: 30 Dec 17 at 8:55pm |
I think this is at the centre of all this,whatever adjustments and gobbledegook is added, crew skill is the major factor. And are these calculations to honour or negate this? |
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Rupert
Really should get out more
Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
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Posted: 30 Dec 17 at 9:05pm |
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I don't think this is the right direction, but in defence of SR I can't see that crew skill is being negated in this method.
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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KazRob
Far too distracted from work
Joined: 22 Oct 16 Location: Scotland Online Status: Offline Posts: 245 |
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Posted: 30 Dec 17 at 9:32pm |
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Every time the subject of handicaps come up here (which is pretty often) I'm reminded of the great book by Peter Johnson - 'Yacht Rating' which apart from being necessary reading to understand nothing is new in the world of sailing but also contains a quote from around 100 years ago to the effect of 'inventing rules for the handicapping of yachts must be a fine pastime for a gentleman'.
Nothing changes! |
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OK 2249
D-1 138 |
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Do Different
Really should get out more
Joined: 26 Jan 12 Location: North Online Status: Offline Posts: 1312 |
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Posted: 31 Dec 17 at 7:33am |
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"I for one (and I have no association with SR, the man from Kent, or anyone else for that matter) would applaud them for at least trying. It may not be the solution, it may not even be a step in the right direction, but at least they are trying something different and for that we should sit back and wait to see what they can - and cannot do. Doing the 'other thing' means just sitting back and doing nothing - which as my next article, due out very shortly will highlight, just isn't an option any longer! Dougal/Ventnor/Isle of Wight" Why is doing nothing no longer an option? (actually the current PY method is being tweaked all the time) I presume you assert a perceived malaise in dinghy racing is caused by a defective rating system, what evidence is there to support this? I suggest that perhaps rather than seeking for others to "do something" we as sailors look to ourselves and "get a grip" and accept and embrace that rating racing will always be a grey area. Surely for the majority of dinghy sailors (myself included) crew skill factor CSF has a bigger influence over a series of races than a few or even several points on the rating scale. For those of high and level CSF I would expect a grown up appreciation of rating racing.
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Rupert
Really should get out more
Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
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Posted: 31 Dec 17 at 8:58am |
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I can't see how supporting the current yardstick system is "doing nothing" either. Just sounds like political soundbites. Given that it has been said on here by Simon L that the technique they are developing is for the big events, not really for club racing (where it is possible to judge positions) it would seem PY still has a long and bright future.
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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