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Simon Lovesey View Drop Down
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    Posted: 30 Dec 17 at 11:53am
Originally posted by mozzy

But how is CPS calculated? Those variables define the type of leg it is, then I guess you use the time it takes a class to complete a leg compared to other boats to produce a PY.  

That is the basics,  we know the length and angle of each leg,  with time taken for each boat.   

Originally posted by mozzy

What is the output of CPS? Is it a PY number specific for a leg angle and wind force?
It is more a performance and efficiency indicator -  so if 10 was the optimum and a class is performing at its peak,  and 1 where it is really struggling eg a foiling Moth in non-foiling mode,  with all the associated drag and a low LWL

Originally posted by mozzy

Then in the article you talk about 'modes'. Its not clear how this relates to CSP. Do you take the characteristics of the leg to determine what mode the boat should be in for that leg, and have a PY for each of that classes modes? Then their PY for the whole leg will be weighted by the length of each leg and which mode the model determines the class should be in for that leg? 

Yes along those lines

Originally posted by mozzy

Where did the met data come from? 

We can import a weather file,  with time stamps,  direction and speeds etc,  but that is not always available and we then use the CSPs to determine how well each class is performing. The system will try and calculate wind direction based on angles etc. Obviously the more data the better.  





Edited by Simon Lovesey - 30 Dec 17 at 11:54am
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zippyRN View Drop Down
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Posts: 437 		Post Options Post Options   Quote zippyRN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 17 at 12:05pm
Originally posted by 423zero

I think Merlin class and Finn class do this already, new handicap and classic handicap.
\

however the  Merlins and National 12s  do have  fairly easily defined epochs  due to  their  development  class nature , not sure how that works for the Finns 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 17 at 2:16pm
Okay, so for each class you will have a series of modes, which will be factor of how achievable their handicap is in that given mode. 

Then for each class you will have some formula that defines which mode each class should be in for each leg. This is based on wind speed and direction, but in absence of that it is taken from back calculating to relative performance to other classes to estimate wind speed and direction. 

I'd be interested to see how wide the bin ranges are for true wind direction and wind speed. You already have 7 modes (although not all will be applicable to all classes). 

At most basic you could have three wind directions (upwind, downwind and reaching) and maybe five wind speeds (0-5, 5-10, 10-15, 15-20, 20+). That's already 15 types of 'leg' you have to define a assign a mode to for each class. 

Would you publish these tables of modes and handicaps for different types of leg in the NoR? There's enough chatter now when the handicaps come out... imagine the polemic with people sorting through tables of modes! 

Then the handicap over the entire races will be weighted by the amount of time each boat spent on each leg and what their corresponding mode should have been for hat leg. 

Handicap races are over time, so you will need to time each boat on each leg. So it's only ever going to be something that can be applied when everyone is logging GPS. If you're using leg times to calculate results you'll then have to define completion and timing of legs in the sailing instructions. 

It's all very complicated. But I admire the effort you're putting in.

Fundamentally I don't think handicap racing is, or should be the bedrock of dinghy racing. So maybe that is fuelling my criticism. It's great if we have some numbers that allows kids to race parents after school and calculate results while sailing ashore. 
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Simon Lovesey View Drop Down
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Posts: 349 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Simon Lovesey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 17 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by mozzy

Okay, so for each class you will have a series of modes, which will be factor of how achievable their handicap is in that given mode. 

Then for each class you will have some formula that defines which mode each class should be in for each leg. This is based on wind speed and direction, but in absence of that it is taken from back calculating to relative performance to other classes to estimate wind speed and direction. 

I'd be interested to see how wide the bin ranges are for true wind direction and wind speed. You already have 7 modes (although not all will be applicable to all classes). 

At most basic you could have three wind directions (upwind, downwind and reaching) and maybe five wind speeds (0-5, 5-10, 10-15, 15-20, 20+). That's already 15 types of 'leg' you have to define a assign a mode to for each class. 

Would you publish these tables of modes and handicaps for different types of leg in the NoR? There's enough chatter now when the handicaps come out... imagine the polemic with people sorting through tables of modes! 

Then the handicap over the entire races will be weighted by the amount of time each boat spent on each leg and what their corresponding mode should have been for hat leg. 

Handicap races are over time, so you will need to time each boat on each leg. So it's only ever going to be something that can be applied when everyone is logging GPS. If you're using leg times to calculate results you'll then have to define completion and timing of legs in the sailing instructions. 

It's all very complicated. But I admire the effort you're putting in.

Yes complicated,  but all done automatically -  trackers on the boats and buoys etc are uploading all their data  in real time,  with all the clever processing done in the cloud.  

Originally posted by mozzy


Fundamentally I don't think handicap racing is, or should be the bedrock of dinghy racing. So maybe that is fuelling my criticism. It's great if we have some numbers that allows kids to race parents after school and calculate results while sailing ashore. 

I actually agree,  growing up in an era of 200+ boat nationals, unfortunately that horse bolted some time ago,  and I think we are best looking forward,  seeing what can be done to improve a sailing scene that has significantly changed in recent years and under increasing competition from other leisure activities.  
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 17 at 2:39pm
ZippyRN,
Article from Dougal about Finns.

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/177256/Little-and-large-meet-again
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 17 at 2:49pm
Does the system take crew weight into account?
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Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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Simon Lovesey View Drop Down
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Posts: 349 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Simon Lovesey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 17 at 2:59pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Does the system take crew weight into account?

No -  like PY we assume that people select a class that broadly suits their size and physique,  and of course one they enjoy sailing  Smile


Edited by Simon Lovesey - 30 Dec 17 at 3:07pm
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 17 at 3:05pm
How much difference does weight from one end of a given classes weight range to the other make? I'd have thought it was considerable in some conditions.
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Posts: 437 		Post Options Post Options   Quote zippyRN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 17 at 4:31pm
Originally posted by 423zero

ZippyRN,
Article from Dougal about Finns.

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/177256/Little-and-large-meet-again

thanks for that , so it;s basically  rig choice  that sets Classic Finn   away from Modern Finn .
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 17 at 4:49pm
Age of hull and whatever owner decides to rig it with, another complication to add to problem of PYAG and Sailracer.
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