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Symmetric pole systems

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Lukepiewalker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Lukepiewalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Symmetric pole systems
    Posted: 10 Jan 08 at 11:07pm
Right, so there is elastic in the system... Ideal.
The worst poles I ever used were ones on GP14s that ran up and down a wire on the front of the mast, stowing vertically.  The 'uphaul' was elastic you would tug on the guy and it would just go boing....
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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 08 at 7:57pm

Not really, Redback. The downward loading on the pole caused by the guy in its reaching cleat will easily overcome shockcord.

But the L2 system is already not bad in that the uphaul and downhaul are rope. The shockcord only takes up the slack after the rope downhaul has passed through a block on the foredeck (so that it can be knotted where it joins the shockcord such that the knot engages the block to limit elastic extension and prevent pole-skying). The block is, as you suggest, located some distance in front of the mast.

All I'd do there is replace the 4mm pre-stretched polyester of the uphaul-downhaul rope by Dyneema to eliminate stretch.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 08 at 5:35pm

Here's a thought.  The conventional system where shockcord is used in the lower part of the bridle to take up the slack is not a good idea.  In really strong winds the pole can still head skywards.  Much better is to use shockcord in the upper part of the bridle since all it has to do is support the pole, use rope in the bottom part so that it cannot stretch.

Another tip is to attach the lower end of the bridle to the deck in front of the mast (rather than on the mast).  Just 50mm or so and then the whole pole system will want to swing forwards which makes it easier to trim in light winds.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Lukepiewalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 08 at 8:42pm
Hmmm... I'd forgotten one thing. You don't have a foredeck area to hide complicated systems of elastic and stuff away...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 08 at 6:46pm
Looks like the pole has been de-restricted, in which case my advice is to use the keyhole setup and if you find the pole too bendy buy a 505 pole.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 08 at 6:39pm
Originally posted by Chew my RS

Do Laser 2 rules allow you to fiddle with the system - I thought it was very strict one-design (not that it matters for club racing)?

PS Nice photo's on this thread!

Laser II class rules:-

 7. Spinnaker Pole

    If fitted, shall be stored on the boom using any or all of the following : clips, supports, shockcord and lines. Lines may be used for a ‘trolley system’ but not for a spinnaker pole launcher.
    19. Spinnaker Pole
    1. The spinnaker pole and fittings attached thereto are unrestricted, except that it shall be made of aluminium alloy, shall not exceed 2.5m overall length including fittings and shall not exceed 45mm in diameter excluding fittings.
    2. A line or tags may be attached to the pole to aid opening.
    3. An adjustable external spinnaker pole uphaul and/or downhaul may be fitted using lines and/or shockcord and fittings. The method of rigging and control of the uphaul/downhaul system is unrestricted except for the following:-
      1. The controls shall be led to the mast and/or deck and shall not be led into the cockpit or aft of a line bisecting the shroud plate.
      2. The uphaul shall be led to a block or turning eye on the front of the mast anywhere below the jib halyard turning block.
      3. The uphaul/downhaul shall not be capable of being used as a ‘spinnaker pole launcher’

 I suppose the best system is the one that suits the individual sailor, personal preferance. I need to try out all of these ideas to see which one suits.

The Current UK Champ has a single ended system with no downhaul, I think he uses the reaching cleat to keep the pole down. Personally I don't like to use the cleat all the time as it makes fine adjustment of the spinny difficult for the crew.

The pic I posted is part of the Rosenfeld collection, I'll scan another when I've got a min.



Edited by GK.LaserII
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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 08 at 11:26am

The L2 rules are very free when it comes to the uphaul-downhaul, which given the inadequacy of the pole is a real boon (I wonder if Vanguard L2 poles are any stiffer?).

Come to think of it, had we not been using a now-illegal, stiff 505 pole on the L2 (one of the top boys was allegedly using a J24 pole before the rules were tightened!), I'd maybe have persevered with the single-ended pole setup, which obviates pole bending.

Then again, as Redback points out, speed through the gybe is vital and for that the single-ender is a disaster, so perhaps the bridle-slung pole is the real answer - no bend and still a double-ended pole. Worth the fiddle at hoist & drop time, and the price you pay for Laser's under-speccing. Perhaps explains why the top boats were using bridles when the class was at its peak

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chew my RS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 08 at 7:12am

Do Laser 2 rules allow you to fiddle with the system - I thought it was very strict one-design (not that it matters for club racing)?

PS Nice photo's on this thread!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 08 at 12:01am

In my Scorpion days I successfully used a pole without a downhaul - but you had to have twinning lines and be very carefull to use them in a blow.  The great advantage of this system was that the pole could stow along the boom, on either side, and was prevented from flopping about by some strategic velcro. 

However now I sail a somewhat faster boat I can see thet this made the gybes a bit tricky because the pole had to be removed just before.  Now that I appreciate how speed through the gybe makes things easier I would use a system which allowed me to just gybe and then sort it all out afterwards. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 08 at 10:39pm

I've actually used the ramp system on two boats - my own and a Wayfarer I crew at opens, and on both the ramp was to the side (threatening the jib, as someone else pointed out), but it in both instances it  required a positive effort to disengage, as opposed to the keyhole which simply slides out along the pole.

Basically, you have to pay attention to the rope loop on hoists and drops, while the keyhole is self-tending.But no doubt slicker souls than I take it all in their stride.

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