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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Handicap Sailing
    Posted: 31 Oct 17 at 4:43pm
Originally posted by Cirrus


of course I have no hard facts to present proof of whatever
collusion/corruption of the PY system for personal/class gain there may
or may not be .....  (etc etc) So there we have it direct from the horses mouth .... so it is all just supposition, speculation or whatever we now might call 'fake news' - Logic being if you repeat ****ocks often enough some naive mugs might just believe you.  The world today I suppose ...Next we expect to hear that your own 'preferred' altenatives (and this is a constantly and regularly moving target of course ...) are nothing but shiny, pure, bright and new and just what 'we' all really need.  Yeah right of course  ......  think most understand now exactly where you are coming from .... LOLWe can expect to see you at which one of the SJ series this year ?!  No ?  Not at all ?  Thought not.    Better  leave you to your winter sailing then  .....'Keyboard' class has a very attractive handicap again I hear.


You missed the bit... The bit that went 'other than the Cold Hard Fact that it is managed by a full commercial operation,' the entire series that would be doing what? Other than assuring such an event maximised their profits? Tell me perlease you're not completely commercially naive.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 17 at 4:57pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

1) PY straight up RYA numbers, no local amendments- any whinging, forward them to the RYA and remind them PY only really works over the series as general indicator of performance.    Any change or deviation will cause trouble, and unlikely you'll be thanked for your efforts.  
2) Return results to RYA to ensure you're doing your bit to make next year's numbers as reliable and representative of the classes sailed at your club as possible.
3) encourage fleet racing for those who seek a higher level of competitive sailing


This sounds like a decent, simple approach that will cause fewest ripples.
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 17 at 5:10pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

1) PY straight up RYA numbers, no local amendments- any whinging, forward them to the RYA and remind them PY only really works over the series as general indicator of performance.    Any change or deviation will cause trouble, and unlikely you'll be thanked for your efforts.  
2) Return results to RYA to ensure you're doing your bit to make next year's numbers as reliable and representative of the classes sailed at your club as possible.
3) encourage fleet racing for those who know their place


ftfy

Edited by iGRF - 31 Oct 17 at 5:10pm
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 17 at 5:15pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by turnturtle

1) PY straight up RYA numbers, no local amendments- any whinging, forward them to the RYA and remind them PY only really works over the series as general indicator of performance.    Any change or deviation will cause trouble, and unlikely you'll be thanked for your efforts.  
2) Return results to RYA to ensure you're doing your bit to make next year's numbers as reliable and representative of the classes sailed at your club as possible.
3) encourage fleet racing for those who seek a higher level of competitive sailing know their place


ftfy

Indeed that's true.... I've re-editted your edit, as for once, I'd tried to make a sensible post.  

After all there's no hiding behind the data, no great conspiracy and no place to blame anyone but yourself for the results you turn out on a fleet race.  

The irony is, for those whom handicap racing is designed to meet their needs, none of that need apply either.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 17 at 5:19pm
Sail Juice publish the PY in the notice of race, just the same as any other PY racing. If you don't like it you don't have to race.

They give a reasonable explanation of why the handicaps are changed from what many are used to and even seem to have a fair bit if data unlike many clubs making changes on gut feel.

In the end handicap racing is good for a winter get together or according to many on here club racing when the options are classes they don't like. But anyone believing moving a few arbitrary numbers one way or the other will make the racing materially fairer are expecting too much.

Edited by mozzy - 31 Oct 17 at 5:20pm
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 17 at 5:24pm

GRFi .. you are intentionally being obtuse now.   You want a major national series to be produced by who exactly ?  Your proposing things should be run by purely amateurs now ?  ... on a zero budget and ‘goodwill’  basis ?   This is getting surreal or is this just what happens on Halloween in deepest Kent. You are barking up the wrong trees again or are you really just part of a ‘click-bait’ scam ?

Charging for entry etc and running things on a sensible and commercially sustainable basis does not  necessarily mean corruption does it ?  Frankly your conspiracy theories don’t really cut it and if you can’t prove a single ‘claim’ against anyone you hint might not be playing fair, and never have managed to in the past, then most will draw the most  simple conclusion.  You are deceiving yourself and trying to deceive the naive and gullible as well.   Now go on and organise your own series with your own handicap system if you must ....  ‘keyboard class’ entries are the only one likely to make it to the line though.  

You seem to know about these things -  so do tell me exactly what the current rate is for a proper ‘decent’ handicap ?? ....    I don’t think I’ve budgeted for quite enough in recent seasons .... Wink



Edited by Cirrus - 31 Oct 17 at 5:26pm
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 17 at 5:52pm
Originally posted by Cirrus

GL just seems to be PY but based on a smaller selection set and with an arguable degree of commercial interest...Quite a charge to make .... Evidence of  'commercial interest' at least then please ?  



Allow me to remind you of the post that initiated this...

Now, you crack on and on and on and on and on about how fair and reasonable a series in which your former Banditry revelled and you expect not to be called on it? Can we talk about that big rig thing you cowboyed that event at Oxford with or the small rig thing you cowboyed our local derby with?

Don't lecture me on where and when I choose to sail, in my mind that event is bent right out of shape so I choose not to support it as much as I'd like to. One day maybe I will, then again maybe I won't but to me corralling all the decent winter events into one particular style for others to profit by aint my idea of cricket, so I'm not playing thanks.
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 17 at 7:29pm

 Yeah yeah - if you say Donald..... I mean GRFi.  Whatever you choose to believe none of us individual regular racers set handicaps, influence handicaps, sit on handicap committees, or corruptly 'buy’ handicaps or even get Russian trolls on the case.    Now I know this might seem strange but bear with us a mo ..... just think about what you are really implying..... without a shread of whatever.  Not one ....

Might be time to just finally accept things like they are rather than you like to imagine them.  Much of what you occasionally suggest that is constructive simply gets washed away in all of the rest of the repeated ‘conspiracy’ drivel.

And Yes .. you are still avoiding the previous question ... How much does a good handicap number cost ?  and who should we approach ?  If somebody were to ‘pay’ more this year what is the current going rate in terms of ‘minutes per hour’ or say PN points ?  We must know !  Tongue



Edited by Cirrus - 31 Oct 17 at 7:30pm
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 17 at 8:02pm
Between fifty and sixty grand, will get you a half decent series last time I set one up, though considering inflation maybe that should raise to 80 -100grand to be safe.

For which you get a new handicap methodology based on the boat, once fixed never altered unless the boat itself changes materially.

A handicap allocation system per helm, based on height, weight and experience, this number can fluctuate according to results attained, pro's race scratch individual helms goal would be to shorten their handicap.

Membership of the new handicap racing organisation committee formed from the trade and competitors selected transparently and open to change from the membership.


A prize fund of 10 grand per event, say five events.

That's your initial price, the system should produce an annual revenue stream depending on take up and access to the handicap issuing site would of course be monetised.

Or you can stick with your existing system nobody would force anyone to join in.



Edited by iGRF - 31 Oct 17 at 8:04pm
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