Handicap Sailing

   So...big discussion tonight between members of the sailing committee and a few people who go sailing...
Should we..

a) adopt the Great Lakes Yardsticks
b) stick with Portsmouth Yardsticks
c) locally adjust Portsmouth Yardsticks

Background...large inland lake...200ish acres....history of pretty acrimonious exchanges about handicaps in the past...age demographic...70% over 45.

As Principal RO (who has to decide those things at our club) what would you do?

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Oinks Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 24 Oct 14 Location: Bandol Online Status: Offline Posts: 267	Post Options Post Reply Quote Oinks Report Post Quote Reply Topic: Handicap Sailing Posted: 29 Oct 17 at 10:35pm
	So...big discussion tonight between members of the sailing committee and a few people who go sailing... Should we.. a) adopt the Great Lakes Yardsticks b) stick with Portsmouth Yardsticks c) locally adjust Portsmouth Yardsticks Background...large inland lake...200ish acres....history of pretty acrimonious exchanges about handicaps in the past...age demographic...70% over 45. As Principal RO (who has to decide those things at our club) what would you do?

andymck Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 15 Dec 06 Location: Stamford Online Status: Offline Posts: 397	Post Options Post Reply Quote andymck Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 29 Oct 17 at 11:12pm
	The great lakes system is not perfect, but at least it seems to be reactive to changes, and has allowed a variety of classes to reach the front, both in the Great lakes events, and in my experience, club racing. There are still quite clearly outliers though, often with boats that do not have an even performance profile. Your alternative is just to introduce a local correction, so that the best sailors in your club have to sail well to win. Or perhaps, a vote to change to adopted classes.
	Andy Mck

Oinks Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 24 Oct 14 Location: Bandol Online Status: Offline Posts: 267	Post Options Post Reply Quote Oinks Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 12:22am
	I think the issue really is, if you change something that has been in place since whenever PN was introduced (1960s?) the status quo is quite radically upset. Something that people have "trusted" (more or less) for a good part of their sailing lives is out the window for what is perceived to be unwarranted fiddling by people who might have some sort of agenda (locally adjust PNs) or this other "Johnny-come-lately" scheme (Great Lakes) that basically takes the PN system which is then (again) adjusted by men in smoked filled rooms. I'm not saying that is the case. But that will be the perception. There will be winners and losers. How would you deal with the losers?

maxibuddah Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 06 Mar 09 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1760	Post Options Post Reply Quote maxibuddah Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 6:57am
	Deal with the losers traditional brexit way "you lost get over it"
	Everything I say is my opinion, honest

sargesail Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 14 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1459	Post Options Post Reply Quote sargesail Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 7:13am
	It depends on what you want handicaps to do? ‘Equalise’ performance for the best sailors (GL’s focus) or all sailors (PY). That’s the difference in how the statistical methods are applied IIRC.

ian.r.mcdonald Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 24 Feb 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 440	Post Options Post Reply Quote ian.r.mcdonald Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 7:33am
	I think that using PY at least avoids a clubs handicap commitee being chased round the dinghy park before racing by people who feel short changed. Thankless task, but thanks to those brave enough to have a go!

Rupert Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956	Post Options Post Reply Quote Rupert Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 8:13am
	Locally adjust, but never downwards, if you want a quiet life. Trouble is, if you have "one of each" racing, you cannot separate boat from sailor very easily.
	Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

Paramedic Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 27 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 929	Post Options Post Reply Quote Paramedic Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 8:23am
	The great lakes system works - to a point - in a big fleet where slow boats have to sail in the dirty air of 80+ faster boats but its very vulnerable to crew skill factor, particularly when you look at the adjustments made to some classes vs people who sail them. There one or two glaring anomalies. To cut to the chase: If you try to use the great lakes system on a small pond you will mess up your racing completely. If you use the PYs it will be better but not perfect. If you tweak the PYs you will be criticised by whoever loses loses out! If its a small pond i would stick to PY. If its open water it probably wont make much difference but fast boats are generally hammered under the Great Lakes system, and there are not as many boats in the way slowing down the med/slow handicap fleets. Its just a case of which crime you want to be shot for really :) Edited by Paramedic - 30 Oct 17 at 8:26am

Late starter Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 24 Feb 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 481	Post Options Post Reply Quote Late starter Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 8:58am
	Stick with the PY scheme. It has the most data. We had a dreadful experience at my club when we tried local adjustments, caused no end of rows and we lost members so not something I'd want to repeat.

423zero Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 08 Jan 15 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3420	Post Options Post Reply Quote 423zero Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 30 Oct 17 at 10:01am
	Only PY issue at my club is from Topaz virtually unbeatable.