New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Tacking in The Zone
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Tacking in The Zone
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
mopuk2000 View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 26 Jul 06
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 22 		Post Options Post Options   Quote mopuk2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Tacking in The Zone
    Posted: 24 May 17 at 12:31pm
I'm not sure what is correct here. I did turns anyway...

Two boats approaching a wing mark on starboard. Boat A is entitled to room from boat B who is pretty much parallel and about a boat length to windward (flying fifteens) - i.e. no offset fore or aft.

Due to a huge wind shift (header) about 1 boat length before the mark, both boats are forced to tack.

Once Boat B thinks they have gained enough height to round the mark given the new wind direction, he tacks back onto starboard and calls.

Boat A tacks onto starboard to avoid the collision but with insufficient room to clear the mark and therefore hits it.

Boat A did turns.

I can't find anything in rule 18 that explicitly deals with the situation where Both boats tack in the zone.
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 17 at 1:19pm
I'm not sure it needs to say anything explicit.

Were the boats were overlapped after both had tacked onto port? Think that makes a difference.

Edited by JimC - 24 May 17 at 1:21pm
Back to Top
jeffers View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 29 Mar 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 17 at 1:21pm
It would come down to when b tacked as being the RoW boat did they give A sufficient room to keep clear (rule 16.2 I believe RoW boat changing course).

It sounds like there was not a lot of separation to me so B may be on dodgy ground.

Knowing the separation between the boats would help and also if they were overlapped once the first tack was completed.

I believe it is not a Rule 18 question until after the final tack (in this case) is completed.
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 17 at 1:59pm
Assuming boats never leave the zone.  Assuming also that neither boat alleges that any rule was broken until A finally tacked into the mark (although, as indicated, there are several opportunities for breaches of right of way or room to keep clear rules before then).

Once the wind shifts so that both boats must tack to round the mark they are both on a beat to windward (Case 132).

When A passes head to wind from starboard onto port for the first time, boats are on opposite tacks on a beat to windward and rule 18 in its entirety ceases to apply (rule 18.1( a )).

When B passes head to wind, boats are on the same tack, at least one of them is in the zone and rule 18 once again applies.  In this instance of rule 18, neither was clear ahead or overlapped inside when she reached the zone, so rule 18.2( b ) does not apply, and rule 18.2( a ) does, that is, whichever boat is is overlapped outside (in this case B) is required to give  the other mark-room.

When B again passes head to wind from port onto starboard, rule 18, once again ceases to apply, because the proper course for A will be to tack (rule 18.1( b )), and while B has not yet reached a close hauled course, and A has not yet passed head to wind, B is required to keep clear of A (rule 13).  Once B reaches a close hauled course on starboard, A is required to keep clear of B (rule 10), but B is required, initially, to give A room to keep clear (rule 15).

When A passes head to wind from starboard onto port, rule 18.2( a ) once again begins to apply.  B was not on starboard since entering the zone, so rule 18.3 does NOT apply.  Until A reaches a close hauled course, A is required to keep clear of B (rule 13), but B is required to give A, overlapped inside her, mark-room, including room to comply with her obligations under rule 31 not to touch the mark (Definition:  Room).

A is sailing within the mark-room to which she is entitled to and, while doing so, shall be exonerated if she breaks a right of way rule of Section A (rules 10, 11, 12, or 13) or is compelled to break rule 31 by touching the mark (rule 21).

Conclusions:
  • B, overlapped outside A, did not give A mark-room.  B broke rule 18.2( a ).
  • If A broke rule 13, she is exonerated by rule 21.
  • A touched a mark.  A broke rule 31, but is exonerated by rule 21.
Decision:
  • A was entitled to exoneration for any rules that she broke and did not need to take penalty turns.
  • On valid protest, penalise B.
Key to understanding and applying rule 18 is that if rule 18.2( b ), or 18.3 do not apply rule 18.2( a )is the default.


Edited by Brass - 24 May 17 at 2:06pm
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 17 at 2:29pm
Originally posted by JimC

I'm not sure it needs to say anything explicit. 

Were the boats were overlapped after both had tacked onto port? Think that makes a difference.

See foot of my previous post:  rule 18.2( a ) is the default, although the least usual.

While both boats are on port, rule 18.2( a ) will only apply if one boat is overlapped outside, but there doesn't seem to be any suggestion that there was any failure to give mark-room then.  Overlap will affect which right of way rule applies, but, again, there doesn't seem to be any suggestion of failure to keep clear while both boats are on port.

Originally posted by jeffers

It sounds like there was not a lot of separation to me so B may be on dodgy ground.

Agree,  Tactically, A's best course of action, once on port, would be to snuggle up to B so that B couldn't tack without breaking rule 13, push B beyond the mark, than peel off and lead back to the mark.

It would come down to when b tacked as being the RoW boat did they give A sufficient room to keep clear (rule 16.2 I believe RoW boat changing course).

After B passes head to wind coming back from port onto starboard, its going to be rule 13, then rule 15, rather than rule 16:  rule 16 would only apply if B changed course after reaching her close hauled course.

Knowing the separation between the boats would help and also if they were overlapped once the first tack was completed.

Given that the incident started with a wind shift when boats were 1 BL from the mark, and presumably then never left the zone, there's going to be very little separation.

See my comment to JimC above:  I don't think overlap on port tack makes much difference.

I believe it is not a Rule 18 question until after the final tack (in this case) is completed.

Rule 18 applies in three instances in this scenario, but I agree the rule 18 breach only occurs after the final tack.

Rule 18 applies from the time A passes head to wind, NOT from the time that her tack was completed (reaches close hauled course).
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 17 at 3:29pm
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by JimC

I'm not sure it needs to say anything explicit. Were the boats were overlapped after both had tacked onto port? Think that makes a difference.
See foot of my previous post:  rule 18.2( a ) is the default, although the least usual.
While both boats are on port, rule 18.2( a ) will only apply if one boat is overlapped outside, but there doesn't seem to be any suggestion that there was any failure to give mark-room then.  Overlap will affect which right of way rule applies, but, again, there doesn't seem to be any suggestion of failure to keep clear while both boats are on port.


I was thinking about the definition:
(b) room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course.
However, mark-room for a boat does not include room to tack unless she is
overlapped inside and to windward of the boat required to give mark-room
and she would be fetching the mark after her tack.

If both boats were on port and overlapped then A is indeed overlapped inside and to windward, so mark room for A includes room to tack if she would be fetching the mark after that tack. So as soon as A can fetch the mark her mark room includes room to tack. Could B's tack be considered a failure to give mark room?

I must admit I'm having trouble fitting all this in a zone; hopefully it was light airs and all travelling very slowly.
Back to Top
mopuk2000 View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 26 Jul 06
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 22 		Post Options Post Options   Quote mopuk2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 17 at 8:18pm
Thanks for all this advice. Yes Jim C it was light airs hidden under the wind shadow of a dam. And also the most shifty lake I've ever sailed on!
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 17 at 12:07am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by JimC

I'm not sure it needs to say anything explicit. Were the boats were overlapped after both had tacked onto port? Think that makes a difference.
See foot of my previous post:  rule 18.2( a ) is the default, although the least usual.
While both boats are on port, rule 18.2( a ) will only apply if one boat is overlapped outside, but there doesn't seem to be any suggestion that there was any failure to give mark-room then.  Overlap will affect which right of way rule applies, but, again, there doesn't seem to be any suggestion of failure to keep clear while both boats are on port.


I was thinking about the definition:
(b) room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course.
However, mark-room for a boat does not include room to tack unless she is
overlapped inside and to windward of the boat required to give mark-room
and she would be fetching the mark after her tack.

If both boats were on port and overlapped then A is indeed overlapped inside and to windward, so mark room for A includes room to tack if she would be fetching the mark after that tack. So as soon as A can fetch the mark her mark room includes room to tack. Could B's tack be considered a failure to give mark room?

I must admit I'm having trouble fitting all this in a zone; hopefully it was light airs and all travelling very slowly.
Given that when A tacked back onto starboard she hit the mark, she was not able to fetch the mark after she tacked, so she would never have been entitled to room to tack.

In any case, room to tack under rule 18.2 only extends until the inside boat passes head to wind, then rule 18 and any entitlement to room to tack switches off.
Back to Top
ohFFsake View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 04 Sep 08
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 219 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ohFFsake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 17 at 1:11am
A related situation happened to me at the weekend, and I'm still not 100% sure of the rights and wrongs!

Windward mark to be left to port. Boat A approaches on port tack, perhaps 1 boat length below the lay line. Boat B is clear astern but sailing fast and free as she has slightly overstood the mark.

A passes the mark, hails "TACKING!" and tacks onto starboard.
Boat B waits until A's tack is complete, at which point the boats are bow on bow and fairly close. B tacks, rounding the mark as she does so, but A has to luff to avoid whilst she is doing so

A fair bit of shouting ensued but without including the "P" word so no further action was taken.

My crew felt we (B) were on dodgy ground due to 18.3, whereas my feeling was that no rule was broken, because...

Initially A was entitled to mark room (18.2b)
Once A passed head to wind she was no longer entitled to mark room (18.2c)
A gained right of way only when she completed her tack (10)
B now took avoiding action by tacking, but A must initially give her room to keep clear, which she did (15)
As B tacked she also rounded the mark, so rule 18 no longer applies at all and B is now right of way boat (11). At this point rule 15 does not apply to B as she gained right of way by B's actions.

But reading 18.3 in isolation implies that B is in the wrong because she tacked in the zone to avoid a boat that was laying the mark, who then had to luff above close-hauled to avoid her.

I feel like 18.3 switches off in this circumstance because of A gaining right of way so late, but I can't come up with a reason why!

In a practical sense the only way B could have complied with 18.3 would have been to anticipate A's tack onto starboard and begun taking avoiding action by bearing away below her whilst they were both still on port. This seems wrong!
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 17 at 3:34am
Originally posted by ohFFsake

A related situation happened to me at the weekend, and I'm still not 100% sure of the rights and wrongs!

Windward mark to be left to port. Boat A approaches on port tack, perhaps 1 boat length below the lay line. Boat B is clear astern but sailing fast and free as she has slightly overstood the mark.

You seem to be saying that A was clear ahead when she reached the zone, and 1 boat length below the port tack layline.

You seem to have a 'mental movie' of the incident which I can't quite appreciate from your description.

If A was already in the zone when she tacked onto starboard, (new) rule 18.3 will not apply.

Rule 18.3 now only applies when the outside windward boat has been on starboard tack since entering the zone.  For that to happen, A would have needed to be between 2 and 3 boatlengths below the layline, and have slightly overstood before tacking from port onto starboard.

So, from the time that A passes head to wind and rule 18 ceases to apply for the first time, no part of rule 18 will apply until B also passes head to wind and comes onto the same tack., at which time rule 18.2( a ) begins to apply, and the inside overlapped boat is entitled to mark-room and rule 21 exoneration.

A passes the mark, hails "TACKING!" and tacks onto starboard.

As usual, I can't see how yelling about it helps matters.  Maybe A thought that somehow yelling was going to get her some sort of consideration if she broke rule 13.

Maybe A should have been thinking about Case 15.

Boat B waits until A's tack is complete,

If B 'waited' until A's tack was complete (presumably you mean A had reached her close hauled course), then, isn't that saying that B took avoiding action while A was tacking, and so A was not keeping clear of B and broke rule 13?

 at which point the boats are bow on bow and fairly close.

How close was 'fairly close'?  If she was 1 BL away and aiming bow to bow, then when both boat's advance 1 BL, that's B looking at A's aft quarter, with only a very slight bear away needed to keep clear.  Questions that a protest committee would need to answer would be:
  • What was the actual space between boats?
  • From the instant that A reached her close hauled course, was there enough space for B to have borne away to keep clear?
  • If contact had occurred, when was it 'clear' that B was not keeping clear (Case 87)
B tacks, rounding the mark as she does so,

I can't see how this can all fit into the space you have described.  If A was 1 BL below the layline then tacked and reached a close hauled course, her bow or beam must then have been about at the mark, so how was there any space for B to tack and round the mark inside her?

Maybe there was a little more space all round.

 but A has to luff to avoid whilst she is doing so

Well, if A needed to luff to avoid B, before B had reached her close hauled course, than B, while tacking has failed to keep clear of A and broken rule 13.

But if B passed head to wind, then, from that time, B is same tack, overlapped inside A and entitled to mark-room (rule 18.2( a ), and rule 21 exoneration if she breaks rule 13.

Note:  there is some debate about this interpretation:  RYA seems to think that in this circumstance B is taking 'room to tack' to which she is not entitled (see Definition of mark-room), and does not get exoneration.

See the lengthy discussion on racingrulesofsailing here

A fair bit of shouting ensued but without including the "P" word so no further action was taken.

My crew felt we (B) were on dodgy ground due to 18.3, whereas my feeling was that no rule was broken, because...

Initially A was entitled to mark room (18.2b)

Yes

Once A passed head to wind she was no longer entitled to mark room (18.2c)

Yes, and rule 18.1( b ).

A gained right of way only when she completed her tack reached her close hauled course(10)

Yes

B now took avoiding action kept clear by tacking, but A must initially give her room to keep clear, which she did (15)

OK

As B tacked she also rounded the mark, so rule 18 no longer applies at all

The rule 18 entitlement arises under rule 18.2( a ).  It is not switched off by rule 18.2( d ).  It switches off when B ceases to be overlapped inside.

and B is now right of way boat (11).   At this point rule 15 does not apply to B as she gained right of way by B's actions.

No, B gained right of way when she reached her close hauled course.  This was not because of any action by A (the other boat), so rule 15 applies

But reading 18.3 in isolation implies that B is in the wrong because she tacked in the zone to avoid a boat that was laying the mark, who then had to luff above close-hauled to avoid her.

Would have been under the 2013 rules, but not now:  A has to be on starboard since entering the zone.

I feel like 18.3 switches off in this circumstance because of A gaining right of way so late, but I can't come up with a reason why!

Under the 2017 rules, 18.3 does not apply at all, unless A passes head to wind outside the zone.

Under the 2013 rules 18.3 applied if A passed head to wind first, no matter where.

But there's nothing to protect A from rule 13 while she's between head to wind and close hauled, while B is on port tack.

In a practical sense the only way B could have complied with 18.3 would have been to anticipate A's tack onto starboard and begun taking avoiding action by bearing away below her whilst they were both still on port.

And protested A for breaking rule 13.

 This seems wrong!

What's wrong with that.


Edited by Brass - 27 Jun 17 at 3:56am
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy