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PY Numbers for 2017 |
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Sam.Spoons 
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Joined: 07 Mar 12 Location: Manchester UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 3401 |
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 Topic: PY Numbers for 2017Posted: 07 Mar 17 at 2:30pm |
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I agree, except I'd have said 'monthly event'
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iGRF
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Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6499 |
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Posted: 07 Mar 17 at 3:30pm |
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I would disagree with the word popular, it is by far the single most unpopular facet of the sport of dinghy sailing which is why they constantly 'hide' not only themselves but their crude machinations.
Far better a Mathematical/mechanical system that doesn't involve fragile egos or scaredy cat 'volunteers' it would be equally wrong but it would at least have logic on it's side and there would be less to be angry and suspicious about and it should rate the boat, rating the boat then transfers the error margin to the individual helm not some other collection of alien dumbass helms the other side of the country. Edited by iGRF - 07 Mar 17 at 3:31pm |
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RS400atC
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Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011 |
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Posted: 07 Mar 17 at 3:47pm |
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The only solutions are: class racing enjoying the race on the water and not caring about the results process your own data in some way. E.g. instead of thinking 'I came 3rd on PY', think about how many seconds you were different from the boats that matter. Think about where you lost time, and whether you are doing better than last year. There really is a lot more to handicap racing than the numbers spat out by Sailwave. Your rivals will know what to think of you from 'on the water'. Nobody is that impressed if you win just by picking a boat with a good PY. I think over the years we have lsot the plot a bit. In the dark ages, people had Ents or Fireballs or Solos, because they saw themselves as members of those classes. They aimed to do some class racing, maybe opens, maybe the Nationals. They had chosen their boat for reasons external to PY racing. PY racing gave them club racing in between class racing. Now we have a lot more people who never class race sailing under PY. People are choosing boats for completely arbitrary reasons, then moaning when PY doesn't work for them. It doesn't help that a lot of fleets are very small these days. When I bought the 400, I looked around at the people I could race against and saw a bunch of comparable people I could learn from sailing 400's. If they'd all been sailing 4000's, I'd have bought one of those. People expect too much from PY, but the recent changes in numbers and lack of transparency is not helpful. In some clubs people seem to be questioning it more and more, rather than just taking it for granted and getting on with life. On the whole, I don't think most racers want an 'equal ops' system where the average Skipper 14 sailor is deemed to be as worthy of winning as the average I14 sailor, but it's not simple to avoid that. Top tip, best way to do well is still to finish more races. |
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iGRF
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Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6499 |
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Posted: 07 Mar 17 at 3:55pm |
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What people want is stability and it not to keep chopping and changing so they can measure their ability against those they are used to sailing against and how many times I'm going to have to spell it out, the days of the 'class racing is best' are gone, long gone, dead, buried, ceased to be, never even was, in my case and what we want is someone who actually cares with some enthusiasm looking after us.
Edited by iGRF - 07 Mar 17 at 3:56pm |
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Posted: 07 Mar 17 at 4:04pm |
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Who cares?
I'd much prefer it if there were no handicaps at all at it gives people the false impression they are competing in a fair race. It gives people the excuse to avoid direct competition by buying random boats. However, as a way of getting big fleets together to see friends and have a laugh, it's not evil.
For it to be fair competition (competition extends beyond the race) all competitors must have equal opportunities from the outset. You either make equipment selection / manufacture part of the competition, and have people design /select and race the best boats they can, or you take it out provide identical equipment (or you settle on anywhere in between with a set of rules). But critically you race on scratch and the winner wins. If half the boats have restrictive rules and others can develop, how is that fair competition? If classes performance varies in different conditions how is that fair? If handicaps are determined by the 'average' sailor, how is that fair when comparing the elite? If boats perform differently on different course, how is that fair? If boats race a different times and experience different conditions, how is that fair? However you adjust or sub sample the data, you will never fix the above. I wish clubs and the sport in general paid less attention to ratings. Possibly would be better to work on personal ratings, as then it would be clear you were trying to 'better' yourself on an average day, relative to others, and there would be some sporting merit in that if only from a self improvement point of view. If there's another 200 out, I'm racing that boat, if there isn't, I'm just going for a cruise. The vagaries of the handicap system are too much to distill any feedback from my own performance relative to other to be worth paying attention to. When I win I want it to be because I have done well; I have designed a good boat, I have constructed a fast boat, because I have hiked harder and sailed faster or less distance. I want winning to be because of something I do. Edited by mozzy - 07 Mar 17 at 4:15pm |
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transient
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Joined: 21 Aug 12 Online Status: Offline Posts: 715 |
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Posted: 07 Mar 17 at 4:15pm |
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Being at a tidal location I look forward to that :-) |
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Posted: 07 Mar 17 at 4:26pm |
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I fear they are just making the situation worse by pretending this is possible.
Yes, altering the handicaps does increase participation in the short term as it piques peoples interest to come and have another go. But how will they ever pull out data from race situations? The wind switching off before your class can get round a mark, whilst the faster boats sail off having beat the tidal gate? When you start with 30 boats, 5 of which are faster and spend the rest of the race in clear breeze whilst you fight for position? The big wind shift which leave the slower boats completing their last lap without doing one tack? Yeah, some of those issues even out over a series, but who completes a series? Other are built in to how racing is formatted at your club. And how will you ever distill sailor skill from boat potential? If you're frustrated by strict designs and want to tinker, race and build in a development class. If you'd rather just buy off the peg and race then do that. But don't get turned over, declare it the boats fault for not being suited to your 'style' then go off buying random boats to find your advantage all the while diluting the experience of people you want fair competition.
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iGRF
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Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6499 |
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Posted: 07 Mar 17 at 4:27pm |
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Don't we all, which is exactly the crux of the problem. |
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Posted: 07 Mar 17 at 4:33pm |
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Then any sort of handicap system or rating can never be the solution.
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RS400atC
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Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011 |
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Posted: 07 Mar 17 at 4:38pm |
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Agreed.
Class racing is alive and well in most places. There is still a lot of proper class racing happening. There are a lot of people racing in PY races that are essentially match racing another boat or two of the same class. I know if I beat the other 400(s), I've had a good race. If I beat the 4000 on PY, I know I've had a good race and it wasn't very windy. If I beat the sym kite boats on PY, it probably says the reaches weren't unkind to us. If I beat a Solo on PY, it tells me nothing. Zilch. He probably wasn't on the same leg as me for over half the race. |
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