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Composite laser mast released

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JimC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08 Dec 16 at 4:20pm
Originally posted by maxibuddah

In other words they must have just stuck carbon effect fablon on a load of aluminium poles and ramped the price up

oh come on, be serious. Apart from anything else it would be rather easily spotted. An all glass spar of the requisite weight would be bendier than the alloy one, an all carbon one stiffer, so a mix of the two should deliver, although I imagine it was rather tricky to get the exact balance right. With that and an epoxy based layup there should be the potential for a much longer lived spar, especially if there's no rivet.

A more interesting question is whether there's another link in the chain that will be the next to be exposed as not strong enough and start failing under the vastly greater rig loads the modern Laser has inflicted on it. One change leaves a toothing stone for the next, as an interesting Italian political commentator rightly said... To my mind, as I've often said, it all went wrong when the Laser association failed to ban all those stupid knots and eyes and things. The rest has followed from there.

Edited by JimC - 08 Dec 16 at 4:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon1277 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 16 at 4:02pm
I did see a proto type a year or so ago and it was rectangular!
So not a tube with fablon but I would not put it past some.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 16 at 3:49pm
In other words they must have just stuck carbon effect fablon on a load of aluminium poles and ramped the price up
Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 16 at 1:41pm
Originally posted by RS400atC



Anyway club bar drivel suggests the new sail needs so much mast bend to get the fullness away from the mast, so a slightly bendier top mast would be better. In some light conditions it did seem to me that replica new-style sails were stalled in the top half where my legal old-style sail could be allowed to twist off a little.
I've not looked at any gen-u-wine new style sails yet.

I suspect the new pole will be a must have for the serious laserists, like the shiny new grp foils.

The stuff coming out the class/builder categorically states that the new top section has the same bend characteristics as the current section.... (just like the new sail trims identically to the old sail..... Wink)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 16 at 1:40pm
Originally posted by GarethT

How many people actually buy a new top section?

We just pay the Noble policy excess and they get one sent to us!

I would imagine most 'new for old' insurance people might be open to the idea of the claimant paying the top up for a composite section when their top mast breaks.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 16 at 9:22am
Originally posted by A2Z

I have no problem with Laser (or any other class) updating periodically. Lasers issue seems to be the slightly haphazard manner in which it happens. the composite mast has been in the pipeline for years and years, but then gets introduced with just a few months notice. Meanwhile, in the US, you can't eve get a new sail.
If the ILCA, rights owners and builders published a 10-15 year plan it would provide some assurance and certainty as to the future of the class. Who would buy a new Laser today not knowing what the future holds?

I don't think many people buy a new laser with a view to the next 15 years, most are looking at being competitive for the next 3 years or so. And most will probably we trading up from an older laser.

Anyway club bar drivel suggests the new sail needs so much mast bend to get the fullness away from the mast, so a slightly bendier top mast would be better. In some light conditions it did seem to me that replica new-style sails were stalled in the top half where my legal old-style sail could be allowed to twist off a little.
I've not looked at any gen-u-wine new style sails yet.

I suspect the new pole will be a must have for the serious laserists, like the shiny new grp foils.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 16 at 8:52am
I have no problem with Laser (or any other class) updating periodically. Lasers issue seems to be the slightly haphazard manner in which it happens. the composite mast has been in the pipeline for years and years, but then gets introduced with just a few months notice. Meanwhile, in the US, you can't eve get a new sail.
If the ILCA, rights owners and builders published a 10-15 year plan it would provide some assurance and certainty as to the future of the class. Who would buy a new Laser today not knowing what the future holds?

Edited by A2Z - 08 Dec 16 at 8:52am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 16 at 8:49am
Paul Elvstrom was renowned for the hull finish on his own boats, it was usually terrible! He reckoned that a couple of days polishing the bottom was equivalent to one missed wind shift so went sailing instead. 

The top laser guys don't need to buys new sail every year 'cos, as Chris points out, they get one supplied at every regatta  Ermm

I don't think the Laser is a bad boat, but neither is it a great boat. It has a number of shortcomings that make it quite unpleasant for me to sail (I have owned one and sailed several over the years) so I bought something else. It has been demonstrated that when a true one design allows improvements to hull construction and layout (Enterprise and Blaze are the two I have a particular interest in) without reducing weight or changing the hull shape, the new hulls, which may be nicer to sail, are not faster than a well maintained older boat. Laser could make the hulls more durable and introduce a deck layout that was 'shortaRSe friendly (something like a bigger Byte maybe) without making those boats faster than a Standard. They could also introduce a new rig (which probably would make the boat faster but would be a different class in the way that Radial is) which might rejuvenate the boats appeal to younger sailors as well as making it pleasanter to sail. I can't see how that would be bad for the class or the manufacturer, or the sailing public.......


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 08 Dec 16 at 9:07am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 16 at 7:51am
Chris, while you are correct that many of the top sailors won't be selecting gear, there are also documented examples of those who will measure mast rake, weigh topmasts, etc. But the vast majority of Laser sailors aren't in either camp, or even doing local open meetings. They are sailing in their club handicap fleet on a Sunday and on a Wednesday night. Some won't even be aware that the Laser is an Olympic class, let alone that a plastic topmast is now allowed. Be interesting to see the reaction at clubs when the first ones filter down to our level.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 16 at 11:48pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

I've said before on here that the top Laser sailors buy a new rig every couple of weeks and a new hull every year.... ok I didn't really say that but to stay competitive at the top level you need new kit more frequently than many other classes due to the primitive construction (it was designed as a beach boat after all).

There are also a lot of fables about Laser kit. My brother was top 25 in the open standard worlds, for example, and he had one old borrowed sail and one new sail in his entire Laser career. We've had people say that Tom Slingsby, for example, would go into the factory and weigh dozens of masts before selecting them. Tom (who I knew as a sub-junior) has told me to my face that's not true, and that he is not allowed in the factory. My former PhD supervisor was the chief scientist at the Australian Institute of Sport and in charge of the study of the bend characteristics of Laser masts, and he says that the study revealed no surprise at all. Stiffness is proportional to spar weight and the differences (in our sticks, anyway) is negligible. Krystal Weir, former world champ and another of our Olympic Laser reps, didn't have that many sails and like Tom or Michael Blackburn (world standard and Radial champ and Olympic medallist), she was not very gear conscious. Both Tom and Krystal have the attitude that it's silly to need special gear when you have to use supplied kit for the major regatta. Learning to adapt to the minor gear differences you may meet is a skill that is needed for success.

The Laser as launched was developed quite a long way from the initial beach boat concept, by the way. At the time there were several vast multi-national conglomerates operating in the beach boat market in the USA, including some of the world's biggest companies. The Laser was developed into a serious but simple racing boat before the product was launched, because the backers did not have the cash to take on car and missile manufacturers in the beachboat market.


Edited by Chris 249 - 07 Dec 16 at 11:53pm
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