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Oinks View Drop Down
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Posts: 267 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oinks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: National/Regional Circuits.
    Posted: 13 Nov 16 at 7:20pm
Its an interesting debate...but one that has been going on for circa 20 years and the arguments remain the same...IF you sail a singlehanded boat.

This doesn't apply to double-handers. I can't think of any (but that's just me)double-handers where you can just chop and change rigs on the day. Maybe this is the thing...sail a double hander. And if you're light, just get your pie eating mate to jump in and pull the strings. No reason to need a whole rig change. Anyway, singlehanded sailing is over-rated IMHO :)
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 16 at 7:25pm
It's about time there were variable size rigs, it is the damned twenty-first century, if the mast thing dispensed more or less sail according to our requirement, less upwind, more downwind, less for small folk more for large then you wouldn't have to have this discussion and it would hardly be rocket science to do it. A shame this sport is stuck in the dark ages.
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 16 at 8:34pm
18ft Skiffs do it 
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 16 at 9:17pm
Big cruising yachts dispense sail out of the mast. Trouble is, the masts have to be dead straight all the time, or the furling gear jams. Not good in a dinghy. Not great in a yacht, but easy if performance isn't what you are after.
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JohnJack View Drop Down
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Posts: 246 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnJack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 16 at 10:09pm
Classes such as Merlin's and Scorpion very effectively deport through taking their mast back.
With a one string system fitted it is as easy as adjusting kicker.

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Posts: 742 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 16 at 10:45pm
Originally posted by Cirrus

This is not logic that stretches the mind of most surely....    'Larger' helms have the edge in some conditons and 'smaller' helms in others.   When each switch each way is up to them.  If the balance of the 'rig  range' favours the 'heavies' or vice versa that is of course a factor that needs some thought - but that will vary from class to class.

If any individual does not like any particular rig range with a class - well that is life and you do have plenty of choice if you really don't like what is in offer.  No different really from any single sail class - but more get to sail for more of the time.


But that wasn't the point that Jeffers was making. I sail a Phantom cause I'm heavy. Someone else will sail a Solution cause they are light. This is exactly what you are saying and I agree.

All we are saying is the allowing multiple rigs effectively reduces the optimum weight range of the boat. If that wasn't the intention (reducing weight range), which I don't think it was, then it has created an unintended consequence.
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 16 at 11:03pm
#JohnJack, Obviously doable but pretty complex to get working reliably I'd have thought? And pretty much all dinghies have the facility to de-power with rake, just not on the water (or at least during a race). And it's probab;y less effective than same as changing for a significantly smaller (or larger) sail (especially as you have the same rake adjustments available with the smaller sail).

#RB, Not sure I agree, surely having different sizes of sails increases the weight range for a class regardless if they have one PN or multiple?

#Oinks, Most doublehanders haf restrictions on the number of sails you can use at a regatta, just like singlehanders. The few exceptions like 18' skiffs prove the rule maybe?



Edited by Sam.Spoons - 13 Nov 16 at 11:34pm
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 16 at 12:26am
I suspect the reasons why multiple rigs are unusual in multi crew boats are two fold.

The first is that the amount of extra hardware and complication required for a single sail on drop in mast is so much less, and the second, related one, is that the cost of a drop in rig is so much less.

Interestingly the "is it one class, is it 3 classes" thing with the Laser and Aero may even help. I recall being told that one of the drawbacks of multiple rigs in skiffs was that if you picked the wrong rig and most people got the right one the race was more or less over before you started. With the singlehanders there may be more or fewer sailors in your class/division if you pick wrong, but at least you'll be in a race.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 16 at 6:19am
Originally posted by Dougaldog

Chris J249,

I'm sorry but you're a bit off line there. yes, when Coronet was first launched, Max Johnson used John Westell's Int 14 rig because the 'new' rig wasn't yet ready. One of the reasons for the delay was that Westell was still experimenting - one example was that he only took the trapeze wire up to the inboard end of the spreader bracket. Not long after the boat was launched, it took part in the Round the Island dinghy race, where it came up against the prototype Osprey and some other new designs that were aimed at the Trials, such as Claude Nethercott's Marianne. Proctor had seen the value of the publicity that would come from winning the Race and had put a great deal of preparation into his rig, two forestays, one rigged with a genoa, the other with a jib (which brings the topic neatly back to multiple rigs).As they came along the back of the Island the wind was easterly, but with a west going ebb there is only one way to make progress; short tack along the shore. Proctor was sailing with an all star crew, 3 up - and had rigged the trapeze up to the hounds. Max Johnson, crewed by Westell struggled, finding it very hard to use the trapeze.
From the Island there was barely time to pack up before heading to La Baule and the Trials - where Coronet had her new rig and a correctly fitted trapeze, There is a lot more detail about how the Coronet rig came about (and what happened in the Trials....and what didn't happen, which is the real 'smoking gun') - this whole story, backed up by first person interviews and a great deal of private correspondence, now forms the opening Chapter of 'Simply the Best - the story of the 505' which is current the live project here in the office.

Interesting. I'm going off the Yachting World report of the trials, where there is a pic of Coronet showing a small main and the small jib tacked aft of the stem, and has a caption saying it's an Int 14 main. The article says that she only used full-size sails on a couple of days in the trials. 

Unfortunately, I can't find who wrote the article but it is certainly detailed. I had the impression that it may have been Proctor, who was writing for YW at the time and would be a very good authority. I'll see if I can find out next time I am near the Maritime Museum's library.
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Dougaldog View Drop Down
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Posts: 356 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougaldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 16 at 10:05am
Chris 249,
At the risk of thread hijacking..... "yes but no but". There was little that happened by chance with Coronet and I would caution that not everything that is in the YW article may be taken as gospel. Even back then the 'law of vested interests' held sway.....
Although I've not had the final sign off on this, it looks as I will get the job of researching and then presenting the Proctor Centenary story around the UK in 2018 - much as I did in 2012 with the Holt Centenary. I'm already stuck into this story so have a reasonable perspective of things from Proctor's viewpoint. What is crucial to the story is not IP's comments, but the exchanges of correspondence with Peter Scott and others.... for that is where the story really lies!
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