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Do Different View Drop Down
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Laser Replica Sails
    Posted: 03 May 16 at 9:57pm
Exactly Rupert @ 9.44.
There is the perfectly correct argument put by David & Cirrus. 
Then there is the real world argument where people simply want to go sailing in a 14ft ish boat they've bought for a few hundred quid that was made by Laser probably over 20 years ago.  
Get over it and encourage people to go sailing whatever way they can.


Edited by Do Different - 03 May 16 at 10:01pm
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 16 at 11:25pm
You can't really expect Laser, long term at least, not to respond in a way that suits them commercially.  There are plenty of low cost (and 'open') classes so nothing to stop people from sailing whatever they like and still racing within the rules.  Equally there is little to stop anyone putting whatever they like on their spars and on any boat. 

But it is not reasonable either to expect such craft to be affored 'equal' status when racing - even at club level. Sure, and maybe of course even, let them join in if the local fleet accept it  but they cannot really be given a race position in 'Laser' fleet racing.   They are no longer sailing a full 'Laser' when using equipment outside of the defined 'Laser' racing envelope ....

What is somehow unfair in keeping to the well understood and widely known rules ?  Lasers may be low cost but there are many many alternatives.  It offers a 'set menu' choice - not 'a la carte' dining ... hence its overall affordability.   If I choose to eat at McDonalds then I accept what is on offer from McDonalds.  


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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 16 at 12:18am
Originally posted by Cirrus

If I choose to eat at McDonalds then I accept what is on offer from McDonalds.  

Let's extrapolate that analogy... mcDonalds might have a corporate core, but at local level it's run by franchisees.  Some follow HQ to the letter, others take a more pragmatic view.. Which is why it's perfectly feasible to sat in a McDonalds at a service station enjoying a Big Mac with a Starbucks Coffee... No one'll shoot your for it and if you get asked what you had for lunch, then the chances are you would say MaccyD's without disclosing the beverage selection.
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 16 at 8:35am
Or you could go club racing and half the fleet could consider it ok to hit the turning marks without doing turns and the other half play to the Rulebook ... And those who play by the Rulebook may feel obliged to accept the "out of class" boats which without question they are, because they don't want to be seen as pariahs.   I know that this also spills out into at least the lower profile open events, probably through ignorance by the competitors.  Hence the point that I made to the OP for his consideration before he made his/her purchase.

It is easy to blame the chaos within the Laser organisation but we all have to sail to the same set of rules ... You cannot pick and choose which ones apply to you.

I do concede the throw on the sofa argument, which is comparable to a cruising or practice sail, but if I am in a one design sofa race I shall use my DFS one design throw, likewise if I am in a one design Big Mac eating contest I will expect my baps to be to the MacD specification.
Happily living in the past
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 16 at 8:48am

Hair splitting or what TT ?

A Big Mac is a Big Mac - even if you don't like their choice of say 'sauce' .. or the price.  To put it as simply as possible - If you don't like the offering  you are free to go elsewhere in a market economy, go off to the local 3 star Michelin restaurant and get exactly what you want or heaven forbid to start up your own alternative supplier.  

You could also say it is a bit like saying I really really like the NHS concept  .... but I don't like anyone suggesting I should pay for it via my tax bill. 

Back on piste - what is wrong with encouraging people to sail with older (legal) sails if they are in an old boat anyway.... or rather is the real point here that some others would really want a fully competitive sail or better and don't want to actually pay the real price.  'Rip-off' sails are just cherry picking off the back of enterprises that have invested loads of cash over many years.... and have then actually succeeded in creating something that people do want.    
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 16 at 9:03am
Originally posted by Cirrus

Hair splitting or what TT ?
 


quite possibly.... but we're discussing the pros and cons of replica laser sails in club racing....  again.  

As someone who vehemently believed that it was cheating to use them, in fact found the whole premise somewhat unethical from a commercial perspective, I've come around to a much softer viewpoint - one of 'managed participation' - it seems to work well at our club.  After all when folks like me sailed Lasers regularly and were staunch opponents of the cheating b**tards with their rip off "counterfeit" goods, we had about 5 or 6 racing.

Now a softer approach, allowing replicas but not scoring if finishing in the top half of the fleet, seems to be part of the overall draw which can see north of 30 competitors in a club fleet race.... it'a not the only facet to the resurgence and success of the best class racing in the midlands, but it sure as hell helps not having jumped-up pricks telling you your boat is somehow 'illegal'. I've also been a member of other clubs where it's simply not an issue if it gets a boat on the water, especially if the competition is with others inside n overall handicap fleet.... and I really couldn't fault the friendliness or the spirit of competition there at all. 

Sometimes hindsight tells we were wrong.    




Edited by turnturtle - 04 May 16 at 9:04am
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 16 at 9:59am
.. and well I'd like a different rudder maybe ... and can I use a different and more affordable mast section on the supposed premise that it 'encourages' me to join in ?   Of course it has absolutely nothing to do with 'real' racing has it  - of course not ?   my rip-off parts cannot surely be 'as good' ... Wink

Either you are in a SMOD class, accept the rules on offer, or choose something else that allows you to have whatever you like ....  legally.   When you bought that boat did you seriously not know the way things were ? 

Well lets change the racing rules as well ... to encourage 'greater participation' - I'm sure there is  a very reasonable justification on offer somewhere.  They are far too complex for newcomers ....  And for example what is really wrong with 'pumping' - it encourages the fit and those less so to get fitter !  We do  need to project the image of sailing as providing a bit more fitness don't we ? 

Where do you stop and who decides 'where' in this 'new' world of encouraging 'participation'  ... unintended consequences will lead the naive and their followers to hell quick enough.   




Edited by Cirrus - 04 May 16 at 10:00am
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blueboy View Drop Down
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Posts: 512 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 16 at 10:19am
Originally posted by Cirrus

So be very careful what you wish for ....  let's just say the class/Laser suddenly 'saw the light' and decided to go 'open' on sails to a common but liberal manufacturing design guide (maybe extracting a modest design fee from all officially participating sailmakers who then enjoy the right to apply the Laser logo). 



I've been involved with administration of SMOD class rules and SMOD class associations don't get to make decisions with commercial implications like that by themselves. The rule owner, World Sailing in this case, wouldn't allow them. So that change would not happen. This is different to classes which are not SMOD, where broadly class associations can make any changes they want (though the rule owner still has right of veto).
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blueboy View Drop Down
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Posts: 512 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 16 at 10:22am
Originally posted by Cirrus

   When you bought that boat did you seriously not know the way things were ? 


Use of replica sails at club level for Lasers isn't exactly new. When you bought a Laser, did you seriously not know the way things were ? 
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sandgrounder View Drop Down
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Posts: 220 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sandgrounder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 16 at 10:53am
Myself and several others I know left the Laser class due to too many cheats sailing with non-measured 'replica' sails, and participating at club and open events.

It would appear that the 'participation' argument works both ways.
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