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jeffers View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11 Mar 16 at 12:51pm
Originally posted by rich96

Originally posted by jeffers

Or just do what the PY system advocates you do which is look at a similar boat (or as similar as you can get it) and use that as a starting point.
This is what happened with the D-Zero, most places used either the GL number of 1010 (which frankly was a bit quick but did not dissuade the D-Zero fleet from attending the winter series events) or based it on a similar boat like a Laser with a Rooster 8.1 rig so about 1040.
Funnily enough the first EN came out at 1040 and how now become a published PY of 1033.
The system works, of a fashion, but too many people complain about it rather than do anything about it. Local adjusting is encouraged and the PYS site does give a list of localised numbers. The problem is more to do with inertia within clubs to change the published numbers.
Anyway back to the H2 which looks like a very nice bit of kit if a little pricey.


If the D Zero has a similar sized sail to the Rooster (but is a far more modern rig), yet sails off a similar handicap, that really demonstrates that the old Laser hull is still pretty effective ?

Why was the 8.1 such a relative flop ?

You miss the point. The 8.1 was a starting point as it was the closest thing that was anything like the D-Zero. As I had sailed both boats (8.1 then got a D-Zero) it would be a good comparison point.

As for the 8.1, I wouldn't say it was a flop there are a lot of them still being sailed out there usually in lighter airs in evening races. The problem it had (if you can call it a problem) is that as soon as a Full rig boat could plane consistently the 8.1 was no faster so many people switched back.
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 16 at 1:06pm
Originally posted by iGRF



I am merely indicating how quickly a number can be acquired and how it could if need be, varied according to crew weight should we decide that would be a fair part of what we'd like for handicap racing. The problem you have jimbo is a far too cynical outlook born from years of having to put up with the crap that is this institutionalised garbage.
You are clearly not an enthusiast handicap racer and prefer everyone in the same boat, despite me pointing out on numerous occasions for the likes of you and I we could never have a fair race given our disparate body dimensions, whereas in an open handicap system, well monitored, that could be the case, You in a high volume boat like a phantom or hadron and me in a low volume craft like a solution or D0 would be a fairer contest, providing the numbers matched, which a formula like this Peaky/Fuller thing offers.


wrong on both counts - 

1) I've gone through my cynical phase with regards PY.  I've appraised myself (top line) of how they are calculated (the process rather than the arithmetic itself) and come to the conclusion shared by most dinghy sailors - it's better than it was thanks to continuous development and it's probably sufficient for purpose given the level of sailing it's aimed at.  Do I personally want to race dinghies under it?  Not particularly... no, handicap racing of any form just doesn't 'do it for me' the way a 'proper race' does.  

I'm yet to find a boat which is so much nicer to sail that it doesn't matter anymore, honestly I've tried.  And sorry, Keith (attempt to get on topic) I don't think the Hadron would change that.  (Let me know the fleet price for 10 units and I will fail, but try regardless, to find 9 other local club members interested...)

If I could be arsed, then my only real point of positive recommendation would be to reduce granularity back to two or three place values- not for any statistical or mathematical reason, but one based on observation of human reaction to change.

As for setting an initial EN, sure the process could be refined (Mike's point above using GL is valid), but if you are at a club who won't give you a temporary number or even one they flex race-by-race for a season or two for a brand new class, then frankly you're probably at the wrong club anyway.  No one has had an issue getting something agreed at my club- I'm testament to that with one custom skiff and latterly a Kona windsurfer.  We have just approved a Shadow cat onto the FH fleet too... I suspect a PY number will follow shortly.  I plan to race my SB Phantom 377 this year too.... I might even get the same number as my Kona (an RS:X did), that is until Chris works out I'm cheating and changes it.    

2) We could easily find a class suitable for class racing together.  I'm 84kg now on a pie day, you're what, 68 ish..... option 1, D-Zero or Laser : Option 2 Aeros- pick your rig.  Either works for me.  Or alternatively we go for the PY system, agree similar boat styles (stayless unarig hiking boats) and give it a shot over a short series to try and nullify the weight / wind factor.  

I get that you think it's impossible to have a true race without some handicapping correction on physical properties and body mass, weight equalisation as its called; but I don't see that... nearly every sport I know accepts weight variety as part of the game.  That's why scrum weights are on the analysis of six nations games, boxers weigh-in before the bout and hair colour, favourite tattoos, height and weight are on those football cards chavvy kids collect from that italian bread roll company during World Cup years.  

It's sport... if you want to take away physicality then let's have it out on World of Warcraft like a right couple of gimps.   LOL


Edited by turnturtle - 11 Mar 16 at 1:16pm
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rich96 View Drop Down
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Posts: 596 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rich96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 16 at 1:28pm
Originally posted by jeffers


Originally posted by rich96

Originally posted by jeffers

Or just do what the PY system advocates you do which is look at a similar boat (or as similar as you can get it) and use that as a starting point.
This is what happened with the D-Zero, most places used either the GL number of 1010 (which frankly was a bit quick but did not dissuade the D-Zero fleet from attending the winter series events) or based it on a similar boat like a Laser with a Rooster 8.1 rig so about 1040.
Funnily enough the first EN came out at 1040 and how now become a published PY of 1033.
The system works, of a fashion, but too many people complain about it rather than do anything about it. Local adjusting is encouraged and the PYS site does give a list of localised numbers. The problem is more to do with inertia within clubs to change the published numbers.
Anyway back to the H2 which looks like a very nice bit of kit if a little pricey.


If the D Zero has a similar sized sail to the Rooster (but is a far more modern rig), yet sails off a similar handicap, that really demonstrates that the old Laser hull is still pretty effective ?

Why was the 8.1 such a relative flop ?

You miss the point. The 8.1 was a starting point as it was the closest thing that was anything like the D-Zero. As I had sailed both boats (8.1 then got a D-Zero) it would be a good comparison point.
As for the 8.1, I wouldn't say it was a flop there are a lot of them still being sailed out there usually in lighter airs in evening races. The problem it had (if you can call it a problem) is that as soon as a Full rig boat could plane consistently the 8.1 was no faster so many people switched back.


Sorry - perhaps I wasn't clear enough.

I'm not referring to you (or anyone else) - simply stating that's its interesting that a 40 year old hull design with a pretty basic rig is still similarly quick to the D Zero - a modern design, modern rig and similar sail area ?

Its just perhaps a demonstration of how good the laser hull form was ?

Oh - and the Rooster as a class has been a complete flop - no Opens, Mickey Mouse 'Nationals' - just a few people doing club events

Shame really as it potentially gave lots of bigger sailors an opportunity to race without spending Phantom or Finn money etc.


Edited by rich96 - 11 Mar 16 at 1:35pm
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Daniel Holman View Drop Down
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Posts: 997 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Daniel Holman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 16 at 1:44pm
I'll be honest, 8.1 is no way near d zero pAce wise. It should be 1080 Ish. But becUse it is only generally used by laser sailors in the light airs and this corrupts the returns, so the py system never sees the cuffing that the 8.1 would receive from any boat on 1040 in more than 12kts, meaning that the py stays articlficially high. Unless it's a non returns based en in which case it's a wet finger in the air and a very harsh one at that.
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 16 at 1:55pm
Here you go iGRF..... weight equalised sailboat racing and in Switzerland too.... you'd only need the one way ticket if we time it right.
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iiiiticki View Drop Down
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Posts: 206 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iiiiticki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 16 at 2:11pm
Weight equalization? Why alter the boat? Why not alter the sailor? If this cannot be achieved by pie abstention then try surgical alteration. In 'Candide' (Voltaire) when an army is under siege, in order to survive they cut off and eat the camp following ladies buttocks, who then survive. I believe they operated one slice at a time.....
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Keith_Callaghan View Drop Down
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Posts: 80 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Keith_Callaghan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 16 at 2:22pm
What a short journey it is from H2 to ladies' buttocks.
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realnutter View Drop Down
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Posts: 129 		Post Options Post Options   Quote realnutter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 16 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by iGRF

the Peaky/Fuller (I tweaked the formula a bit) EN generator


So where is this piece of witchcraft?
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 16 at 2:39pm
Originally posted by Keith_Callaghan

What a short journey it is from H2 to ladies' buttocks.


On the subject of weight, how have we managed 14 pages of waffle without anyone demanding to know the weight of the Hadron?

Are there class rules in place with a min weight?
Or is it like other SMODs where you take what you're given?
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 16 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by Keith_Callaghan

What a short journey it is from H2 to ladies' buttocks.


On the subject of weight, how have we managed 14 pages of waffle without anyone demanding to know the weight of the Hadron?

Are there class rules in place with a min weight?
Or is it like other SMODs where you take what you're given?

because it's friday.... If the Hadron were represented by a specific shape of female derriere... which would it be?
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