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Singlehanded BOX rule

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johnnyt View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote johnnyt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Singlehanded BOX rule
    Posted: 20 Dec 15 at 6:45pm

I have read this thread with some interest and given that the F18 was mention and I am a F18 sailor I thought I would reply. 

The fundamental different with the F18 box rule is that the rules were derived before boat had been build. In the 1990s there was different manufactures both in the UK and Europe who were producing different types of catamarans. It was only the advert of the SCHRS, Small Catamaran Handicap Rating system that the F18 was derived so that manufactures could produce boats to this rule.

Since the class was incepted in 1994 there have been many different interpretation on the rule and boats have developed. The downside of the class is keeping up to date with those developments at a cost. Older boats do become uncompetitive so it is a challenge for the class association to keep the owners with older boats involved. Again in the early stages manufacturers would produce the latest version of the boat and professional jockeys were recruited in to ensure that these where kept at the front of the fleet and results sell boat. This is not some much the case now and new designs are less frequents although there may be minor modification just to keep the class up to date.

F18 in the UK is not popular as on the continent, the French having major F18 fleets. In the UK although the fleets are small it is recognised that the competition is very fierce and tends to attach the top teams some of who go only the Olympic NACRA 17 as a stepping stone.

The difference with the F18 and what is trying to be imposed for the singlehanded classes is that the classes already exist so it will be trying to fit a round peg in a square hole for some of the classes. Those single handed classes that do not perform will be those that drop out.

I like the thought that Cat sailors are viewed at being more chilled out than mono hulled sailors.  

John Tuckwell
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 2:40pm
thanks for the insight John  Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Quote zippyRN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 3:03pm
Originally posted by maxibuddah

But eventually everyone will migrate to the one that is bound to dominate, then the box rule becomes pointless.

hasn;t happened in the  development classes  that weren't written to include specific boats i nthe first place ( or even i nthe development classes that  were ) 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pompeysailor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 4:01pm
I was hoping for a bit more enthusiasm and ideas to make this work rather than everyone say it wont work. Most sailing clubs, and classes themselves are struggling for numbers and this would have been a great opportunity to bring multiple classes together under one roof and race in bigger fleets with a stronger committee / support network to drive things forward e.g. marketing, sponsorship, training days, open meetings etc.

Oh well, shame on me opening my mouth. Lets not change a thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 4:09pm
Most sailing clubs, and classes themselves are struggling for numbers and this would have been a great opportunity to bring multiple classes together under one roof and race in bigger fleets

While it might make a difference at the level of Opens and class organisation, would it change things much at club level? I'd guess that at many there are handicap fleets with many of the sorts of boats in your list already sailing against each other on handicap. I don't really see that effectively saying they are on the same handicap is going to help things much? The effect is likely to be to discourage those who find themselves sailing the less competitive boats, and encourage a degree of cheque book sailing with some going out and changing class to the ones that do better under the rule. That might in time have the desirable effect of reducing the number of classes out there, but I'm not convinced it would improve participation at club level.
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 4:17pm
Frustrating isn't it?  I wouldn't get too down in the dumps though, it's not like everyone disagrees with you, it's just that some of us have had similar thoughts but faced the same conceptual brick wall.  

I was a stone's throw from garnering expressions of interest from two classes as part of a larger watersports event last year (A large event with over 1000 watersports people in attendance, that currently bars dinghies from participating, but the organisers were at least listening to my proposals, if a little reserved...).  

The theory being they run off the beach Le Mans style, no handicaps etc just scratch racing- out to a mark and back, some W/L, some reaches... short racing and mix it up a bit.  

Did I do it?  No.... and the reason was simple.  Even the guys who I thought would jump at the opportunity were as caged and guarded in their initial response as you've received here.  I figured it wouldn't be worth my time to potential fail, or have to spin why the numbers didn't materialise on the day to both organisers and the classes concerned.  Besides they both seemed busy enough doing their own class programmes in isolation to worry about bringing something together.  

There is a minority who would see what you are proposing as precisely the right approach, however it's a minority, weak on influence and from those I know, probably a little defeated in time and will power right now to see it through or even support it in physical presence.  

 Best of luck and keep us posted.


Edited by turnturtle - 21 Dec 15 at 4:20pm
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 4:45pm
Small boat racing in the UK stretches back getting on for 150 years. In that time pretty much everything has been tried, but circumstances alter cases... No-one can possibly know everything that has been tried, so its no shame to come up with an idea that's impractical. Better that than never come up with an idea at all.

The mob can evaluate any idea against what's been tried before, but changing circumstances will change things. It would certainly be an interesting idea to have handicap events that catered for a much more limited variety of boats. The late SGP was one such, and it would be good to talk to the organisers to get a feel for why it ran out of steam.

The interesting thing about the F18 is not how the sailors see it, but how the manufacturers see it. They seem to be able to coexist in a state of what Ray Noorda called co-opetition. Somehow the pace and cost of development is kept under bounds, and each manufacturer can sell enough boats to stay in the game. In the dinghy market they don't work like that at all: each supplier is struggling to develop a separate class.

Traditionally with development classes two things happen.
The first is that a single model becomeas dominant for a while and few competitors buy alternates. As a result the best sailors are all sailing the Jones mk4 (or whatever) and so the results are dominated by Jones Mk 4s. Then someone comes up with something better, and after a while the fleet all flops over to that.
The second thing is that the pace of development becomes extreme. There appear to have been times at the end of the 19thC in some classes where a winning design would have a competitive life of under a season. Did that mean the rich (few others raced) bought two new boats a year? But anyway such a short life meant investment in tooling to batch produce boats cheaply would be foolish, and so costs escalate beyond all reason.

Somehow the F18s seem to manage to keep those problems under control. It would be interesting to know how they do it, and if there are a selection of UK manafacturers of dinghies who could co-opete [sic] in the same way...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 10:32pm
The F18 was significantly more popular here in the UK about 15yrs ago and does seem to have slid back a bit recently but clearly has a core following that keeps it going.
From memory the rules are prescriptive enough that the only real areas for development are hull shapes and to some limited extent the foils. Differences in hull shapes are fairly small and subtle under the waterline, and foils have gone backwards and forwards in terms of aspect ratio and length. Most sailors know that the F18 Masts are incredibly heavy and crude but it's accepted.

If you look to the F16s the big problem is the cost. When they were first introduced here they were seen as an easier to handle boat than the F18, with the possibility of sailing single or doublehanded and the price was good. My father-in-law nearly bought a Stealth from John Pierce but I steered him towards the Spitfire, which at the time was about the same price and less than an F18. Now the Vipers are similar if not more than an F18, due to the exotic materials.

I think it shows that a small handful of people buy into the high-tech, high-value market, but the majority buy into something more modest.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 15 at 9:08am
Originally posted by JimC

The late SGP was one such, and it would be good to talk to the organisers to get a feel for why it ran out of steam.

The reason the SGP failed was because the 2 people who thought up the idea and had it running successfully for 2 years then decided to take a step back and allow others to pick up the slack as they could not devote the time to it.

Sadly those who took over allowed class politics to get in the way and the event ultimately failed after 2 very successful events (the first at Datchet, the second at Rutland). 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 15 at 10:35am
 
Originally posted by JimC

The late SGP was one such


What was that please?
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