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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Blaze Class for Sale
    Posted: 13 Nov 15 at 11:18am
I agree the alloy trolley, tried to get one for one of our older lady sailors, not that easy a task is it? You know, like pop down to the local alloy trailer dealer. Like if we wanted a lighter fin for our board we'd just pop to the local dealer.

They had trolleys that actually floated up at Grafham with those aero,s but in the sea, not a good idea they bob about and get washed by even the smallest surf.

Lakes do also have tough conditions, slippy slimy slipways, steep muddy banks not everyone has the joys of Grafham or Bewl gentle goose sh*t covered slopes into the brackish slime.
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ventus View Drop Down
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Posts: 43 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ventus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 15 at 11:24am
Originally posted by salmon80

Originally posted by SimonW99

You have to put all of this in context. 
The Phantom is £8395 without a sail so at least 10k on a trailer, without any racks or centreboard -  probably more. The blaze has racks and a centreboard, neither of which are cheap to build and give it options not available on other boats, you are not comparing like with like. You can also pay a lot more for a Solo. The nova has always been decent value. Ultimately its about volume and complexity. Production boats have volume, more consistent build costs and generally can be produced down to a lower price. Smaller run boats in epoxy are more expensive and by the time you are down to producing individual boats they will be very expensive to build.  As soon as you start adding low volume carbon rigs, centreboards and racks, you are not only increasing cost, but building a very different product and in the blazes' s case one that is faster round a course than anything else on the list despite being an older design, primarily because of the racks which manage the power of the rig upwind. 
A 10k all in singlehander with racks, from Jo Richards following his aero principals would be considered a complete bargain! 


I think I am comparing like with like, they are all slow fleet (1000 plus) boats with a single sail suitable for a 70-75kg sailor. Whether it has racks or not doesn't really affect the appeal to me. The amount of carbon in a blaze is why I think it stands out as expensive. In the ok and British Moth case it is my opinion it is probably because of carbon and because the average owner is perceived to be a baby boomer with lots of cash

Supernova is the best value that might be why there's 100+ at the nationals next year. Was at the inlands in September 56 boats ...

I do think you're a little out on some of the prices, no british moth has ever cost more than a winder solo even with a full carbon rig.

Spot on about the supernova, one of the best value boats out there. Enjoyed my time in one, even if the fully battened sail was a little trying on restricted water.
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Posts: 240 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iiiiitick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 15 at 11:25am
Car manufacturers used to make a 1.6 or a 1.8...say. The 1.8 cost more of course...but why? That 0.2 was just capacity in the cylinders. More money for fresh air? We have an old Blaze at our club. It went well in a howler with an experienced helm on board but  seems sluggish with it's fat boy owner in the light.

Those boat prices seem astronomic to me when the 'former boy' put his special black Byte on the water with all covers and bags, combi and spare sail for less than  £4800. Shame you are not all skinny..... After a hard season its only failure has been an unraveled splice. Hartley are getting the quality right which bodes well for Blaze.
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PeterG View Drop Down
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Posts: 822 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 15 at 11:40am
personally I would extend the daftness to sailing on a shingle beach with a shorebreak with anything larger than a sailboard.

In an ideal world you are obviously right. But what do you do when you live on a part of the coast where the choice is sailing from a shingle beach with a break at anywhere nearby or commuting long distances to sail on a pond?

I suspect that sailors at clubs with shingle and a break tend to be more helpful to each other - you have to be, you can't winch a boat up the beach single handed, if the break sets in then you're likely to be very appreciative of help when you land, and most people respond to that by helping others in return. No bad thing.
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salmon80 View Drop Down
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Posts: 119 		Post Options Post Options   Quote salmon80 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 15 at 11:40am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by SimonW99

What you are really saying is you don't recognise that building a more complex and faster boat gives a builder any reason to charge more.


Mmm, well said. Apples and oranges, or maybe oranges and pineapples since although they are both fruits with sweet juice, one is enormously more complex to produce than the other.

It has struck me in the past though that often when people post shall I get A or B, the listed choice is not between say a golden delicious or a Cox's orange pippin, as one might expect, but indeed between apple and orange.


I think you and Simon are focusing on the technical detail of the boats. As I see it they all provide fleet racing as a hiking singlehander. In that respect they are the same market. PY-wise I doubt the introduction of carbon masts and racks has put the blaze in a different league speed wise but it makes a small but significant difference boat on boat so it becomes a must have. A blaze with an M7 is £1000 cheaper. I appreciate the impact material choice and complexity of construction have on cost I just don't see the need for them on a slow boat
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 15 at 11:43am
Apart from somewhat sluggish tacking our experience with the blaze was that they still seemed irritatingly quick in the light. 

 One thing I would say is that its a boat that seems very fast indeed with the right sailors in them working hard, but when sailed by an average joe, I could beat them over the water in the Supernova in some conditions. 

The good guys work the racks hard, adjust the board and know when to foot off or point, which seems key. One of the regular sailors at that time seemed to sail ridiculously free but his VMG was really fast. The Blaze is no dog in any conditions, but its really easy to sail badly.

That said time in the boat makes a massive difference in any class. Even the Aero , which on the face of it seems very simple takes several months to find its sweet spots. 
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 15 at 11:48am
Originally posted by iGRF

I agree the alloy trolley, tried to get one for one of our older lady sailors, not that easy a task is it? You know, like pop down to the local alloy trailer dealer. Like if we wanted a lighter fin for our board we'd just pop to the local dealer.

They had trolleys that actually floated up at Grafham with those aero,s but in the sea, not a good idea they bob about and get washed by even the smallest surf.

Lakes do also have tough conditions, slippy slimy slipways, steep muddy banks not everyone has the joys of Grafham or Bewl gentle goose sh*t covered slopes into the brackish slime.

Welsh Harp/Sovereign are pretty helpful ref. delivery in my experience.  Though you are correct that they do tend to float.  But they are much easier to lug the Solo on.
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salmon80 View Drop Down
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Posts: 119 		Post Options Post Options   Quote salmon80 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 15 at 11:53am
Originally posted by ventus

Originally posted by salmon80

Originally posted by SimonW99

You have to put all of this in context. 
The Phantom is £8395 without a sail so at least 10k on a trailer, without any racks or centreboard -  probably more. The blaze has racks and a centreboard, neither of which are cheap to build and give it options not available on other boats, you are not comparing like with like. You can also pay a lot more for a Solo. The nova has always been decent value. Ultimately its about volume and complexity. Production boats have volume, more consistent build costs and generally can be produced down to a lower price. Smaller run boats in epoxy are more expensive and by the time you are down to producing individual boats they will be very expensive to build.  As soon as you start adding low volume carbon rigs, centreboards and racks, you are not only increasing cost, but building a very different product and in the blazes' s case one that is faster round a course than anything else on the list despite being an older design, primarily because of the racks which manage the power of the rig upwind. 
A 10k all in singlehander with racks, from Jo Richards following his aero principals would be considered a complete bargain! 


I think I am comparing like with like, they are all slow fleet (1000 plus) boats with a single sail suitable for a 70-75kg sailor. Whether it has racks or not doesn't really affect the appeal to me. The amount of carbon in a blaze is why I think it stands out as expensive. In the ok and British Moth case it is my opinion it is probably because of carbon and because the average owner is perceived to be a baby boomer with lots of cash

Supernova is the best value that might be why there's 100+ at the nationals next year. Was at the inlands in September 56 boats ...

I do think you're a little out on some of the prices, no british moth has ever cost more than a winder solo even with a full carbon rig.

Spot on about the supernova, one of the best value boats out there. Enjoyed my time in one, even if the fully battened sail was a little trying on restricted water.


Am I misreading it then? Winder basis boat with Dacron sail £6500 Claridge moth (£5950) with carbon mast (+£600) and boom (+£250) upgrade £6800

maybe the solo is sail-less?
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Noah View Drop Down
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Posts: 611 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Noah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 15 at 12:58pm
Originally posted by SimonW99



The Phantom weighs 61KG and has a dagger board, so not sure why you would find that easier than a centreboard Blaze with those racks to grab hold of on that old shore dump of yours doesn't necessarily stack up  Wink


Er, No it doesn't. Phantoms have retracting, rotating centreboards, not daggers.
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 15 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by Noah

Originally posted by SimonW99



The Phantom weighs 61KG and has a dagger board, so not sure why you would find that easier than a centreboard Blaze with those racks to grab hold of on that old shore dump of yours doesn't necessarily stack up  Wink


Er, No it doesn't. Phantoms have retracting, rotating centreboards, not daggers.

Correct

Plus I am not sure where the D-Zero pricing came from but a D-Zero with Launching Trolley, Mast up top cover, padded foil bag and carbon tiller extension (other options are available) = £6535 at the moment (taken from the current price list on the Suntouched Website).

Fully loaded aside from a road base is around £7k but unless you are going to travel why spend £500 if you are not going to use them?


Edited by jeffers - 13 Nov 15 at 2:19pm
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