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 Topic: Americas cupPosted: 03 Nov 15 at 7:26am |
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I was in Auckland in 1995 for the ticker tape parade after winning the AC. It was immense, like most of the population was there to congratulate the team. The pride and enthusiasm was like nothing I've experienced before or since. It must have had an effect on sailing take up in NZ. Surely.
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Chris 249
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Joined: 10 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2041 |
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Posted: 03 Nov 15 at 1:15am |
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I'm a MAMIL too, from a cycling-mad area. I find racing bikes to be much cheaper than racing dinghies, which is borne out in new prices - the most expensive new bikes on our major national site are much cheaper than a Tasar and 1/3 the price of an expensive dinghy. And spending $4,000 on a bike gives you coffee shop cred, whereas spending $4,000 on a boat can get you sneers from some in the sailing industry. Yep, time is of the essence, which is why it's hard to work out why do many in sailing are promoting an incredibly time-consuming model of the sport. How many people could afford the time to sail a really high performance boat?
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Chris 249
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Posted: 03 Nov 15 at 12:16am |
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Obviously I'm not on the ground as you are, but as said a few posts back "you need to compare fleet sizes on entry level classes to see whether they are going up or down" I did that, as in the previous post, and it seems that whether entry level classes are going up or down seems to have little or no relationship to the popularity of the sport as a whole. Entry-level fleets have been growing in many countries for many years but sailing does not seem to be growing. Out of interest, I checked out NZ national fleet sizes from the past 10 years. To make it easier to read, I have put the national title fleet size in chronological order without putting down the years, although I have recorded them. I can't find data from all years and I haven't yet done many junior singlehanders. Youth/Junior/Lightweight 4.7 10; 6; 34; 30; 9; 5; 7; 4 Radial 25?; 45; 78; 64; 79; 68; 54;53;83 Steady/erratic Starling TBA
Youth doublehander 420 - 36;32; 33; 16; 13; 14. Dropping 29er- 12; 9; 7; 8?; 13 Steady (and small) Cherub- Yep, it died years ago. Adult singlehander Zephyr 49; 42; 37; 52; 45 Steady OK- 34*; 22; 24*; 28; 35*; 29;40*; 30; 24; 30 steady (*= years when there was Interdominion and Aussie boats swelled the fleet). Laser Std- 72: 83:61:48:74:46:44:37:66 Dropping? Farr 3.7- 20; 18; 18; 16; 20; 23 Steady Int. Moth, NZ Moth, Europe - dead or tiny Dropped Two-handed "family" boats Phase II- 21; 16; 16; 12; 9; 14: 4: 4 - Dropping fast NZ Mistral- 22; 28; 20; 40*; 22; 21; 21; 16: 20 - Steady NZ Jollyboat 23; 23; 29; 17 - Steady (note- sailed 1 or 2 up) Sunburst 29; 51; 32 - Steady (+ 18 and 6 sea scout boats). Should be more Sunburst info available but I can't find it. Crewed high performance adult R Class 12; 12; 15; 15; 12 (first foiled R); 9, Not held*; 15; 9; 6; 6 Dropping (affected by the tragic earthquake, but the decline has been long term - 15 years ago there were about 30) NZ Javelin 16; 11; 12*: 12: 10 Dropping (*= interdominion with Aussie boats) 12 and 18 Foot Skiff - not enough information available; 18 active boats in total? FD, 470 - too small/not enough information available
Yep, I'm very aware that geography plays a huge part in the development of the sport in larger countries - after all, I come from one and I study regional differences in sailing. I now live 120km inland near a puddle and we have a surprisingly strong sailing scene, in which people care about the boats they sail and not about the AC or Volvo, which are basically irrelevant to anything we can sail here. Yes, the British inland sailing scene is wonderful and has a lesson for all of us (as does Hamburg's sailing scene IMHO). Whenever I've asked what that lesson is, I've been told that convenience and sociability are the keys, rather than high performance or spectacular sailing. However, there are certainly other areas that have developed a special style of boats for inland sailing - the US Scows and German Renjollen developments are obvious examples of boats that suit their environment really well but are ignored in the rush to hype a model based on pros sailing boats that cannot be used in the environment most people sail in. Yes, there are many factors in promoting a sport - which is why I find it hard to work out why people can be so sure that the AC is beneficial.
Edited by Chris 249 - 03 Nov 15 at 2:07am |
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Richard Gladwell
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Joined: 29 Oct 15 Location: Takapuna Online Status: Offline Posts: 20 |
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Posted: 02 Nov 15 at 1:23pm |
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Chris
The statistical approach has to be checked against reality. If that process stacks up - then you take it from there. But often an changes that are going to be made can cost people a lot of money - like making a change to a class progression chart (if you believe in those - and plenty of non sailing parents do). There was a Skiff progressions chart floating around - as well as the one which claimed the Olympics/tactical one-design classes were the top of the sailing hierarchy. numbers in Rs, Javs, 29ers, Phase IIs, Cherubs....is zero a number? R's are interchangeable with 12ft skiffs now days - so the numbers come and go a bit. Javs are still holding Nationals and Saunders Cup. 29ers are a strong double handed youth class (from which they usually pick the multihull crew as well). Phase II's have all but died, and Cherubs are a recreational boat only - but I could be wrong As for the rest of it you have to be aware that in countries bigger than NZ (and I think in NZ no-one is more than 75nm from the sea) that geography plays a huge part n the development of the sport. Most of the top sailors in NZ have come from small towns outside Auckland - and that is a further dynamic of the geography (and probably that within the small town environment people work together a lot better than larger societies where inter-club rivalries play a too significant part. UK is perhaps the best example of a country where various forms of sailing have evolved around inland waterways, as well as the sea, but others are not so innovative. The thing that America's Cup and other major sporting endeavours do engender in a country is a feeling of self-belief and pride. Maybe this is more pronounced in a small country like NZ, but that is why some governments pump money into sport, because they know that the pride that can be generated cannot be produced in any other way. That "can-do" attitude has a significant effect on the economy and the country gets a dividend greater than its investment. Kids getting into sailing is providing the next generation of winners, and so the beat goes on. Fail to do that and you have a talent black hole 15-20years on. RG Edited by Richard Gladwell - 02 Nov 15 at 8:50pm |
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Chris 249
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Posted: 02 Nov 15 at 9:01am |
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Just quickly;
Richard, I agree that the 'sports management experts' may well be full of hot air - but studies that rely on statistics taken from third parties like national census bodies are much simpler and less theoretical and when they keep on saying the same thing, surely they cannot be rejected so easily. Secondly, while the Opti numbers are great, what about the numbers in Rs, Javs, 29ers, Phase IIs, Cherubs....is zero a number? Secondly, how do you know the numbers in the extremely slow, simple Opti are high because of the AC and Volvo influence? Here's some other Opti numbers from my spreadsheets - USA Opti nationals 77 in 1983, 101 in 1988, 208 in 2003, 368 in 2004, 345 in 2008, 277 2012, 278 in 2015. I haven't bothered to check other recent results, but the numbers seem to show (1) that given the apparent major slide in sailing in the USA against a background of increasing Opti nationals fleets since the '80s, the Opti nationals may not be a good barometer for the sport as they are now much higher than they were when the sport was stronger; and (2) there has been no increase since the US got the Cup back. In the UK the fleet at the Opti nationals was 50 UK 1975, 93 in 1980, 97 in 1983, 146 in 1988, 223 in 1995, 270 in 1999, 298 in 2000, and is now normally 400+. However, 1975 was also the year when the Yachts and Yachting nationals attendance records show the start of the decline in dinghy championships, so again the rise in Optis has not resulted in a rise in dinghy sailing by that measure. The story is similar in Australia. Massive Opti fleets are not translating into a stronger sport overall. While fleet size may well be our best measure of the strength of the sport, surely as you said yourself earlier we cannot just look at one fleet. This isn't attacking the Opti. Personally the lesson I take from its enormous success is that when we give kids cheap, simple equipment they get into the sport. As you say, time is of the essence - and in many places sailing a foiler or multi takes vastly more time than sailing a "conventional" boat. Again, please note that this is NOT kiwi-bashing, as the same points apply here and in many other places. Edited by Chris 249 - 02 Nov 15 at 9:07am |
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Richard Gladwell
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Posted: 02 Nov 15 at 8:43am |
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Edited by Richard Gladwell - 02 Nov 15 at 8:47am |
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blueboy
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Posted: 02 Nov 15 at 8:06am |
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[QUOTE=Chris 249]Yes, there have been demographic changes in many English-speaking countries - but sports like cycling (which is seen as low class in some Asian countries) are doing well despite such shifts. [/QUOTE]
Cycling is huge where I live and I too am a MAMIL. "Cycling is the new golf" is a cliché with much truth to it. It's quite reminiscent of the windsurfing boom. Huge numbers "compete" in sportives with no chance of winning but for the experience, the fitness benefit and some camaraderie. The other cliché is that sailing has a problem because it is expensive. On a sunny summer weekend a few £100Ks of carbon frames roll past my front door. We MAMILs have got the money, what we don't have is loads of free time. Football is allegedly cheap but my village football team has died and isn't coming back. My village can't rent out our soccer pitch because clubs want to pay money for a prepared facility and don't want to be responsible for cleaning up afterwards. |
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blueboy
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Posted: 02 Nov 15 at 7:41am |
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It's a tiny, tiny number. I have friends whose son has a sports scholarship and is on the cusp of being a professional athlete (not in sailing). It remains the case that his chances of making a good long-term living out of sport are non-zero but slim, very slim. I believe the UK has gone in the wrong direction in putting huge numbers of non-academic kids through a university education but the fact is now that a first degree is the sine qua non for most entry level jobs that provide the prospect of a decent living. Looking at the numbers in youth sailing is misleading anyway. That isn't the problem. Retaining sailors in the sport into their twenties and thirties is the problem.
If there were that much grief the city would have entered a serious bid to prevent it. Most of the grief I've seen has been from sailors attached to the club-centred deed of gift ("should have been in SF") or the nation-based nature of the deed ("should have been in the USA"). I've plenty of sympathy for the first, less from the second, but in neither case is their much evidence that the general population of SF could give a hoot. Edited by blueboy - 02 Nov 15 at 7:55am |
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Richard Gladwell
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Posted: 02 Nov 15 at 5:50am |
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I did some quick research on the Optimist fleet numbers at NZ Nationals for four nationals between 2011 and 2015 - the Open Nationals were static at around 153-160 boats in the Open fleet in each of the years regardless of the location, Auckland, Wellington, New Plymouth or the South Island.
The Green fleet varied between 50 boat out of Auckland an 114 in Auckland (Manly about an hour north of Auckland). The highest ever was in 2011 at Wakatere (Auckland's North Shore) with 203 in the Open fleet and 106 in the Green fleet. This year 2016 they are back at Kohi - so it will be interesting to see if they get back to the 2011 fleet size, which one would expect to happen.
That is not a diminishing sport in my view, and certainly not one that has halved in numbers - but that is reality against surveys. You should slo be aware that it is not compulsory to be a yacht club member to sail in Auckland and in fact most of this who sail on keelboats aren't - even to race, as the local rules only require that there be one yacht club member aboard. Many of the clubs are multi-use fishing and boating and power as well as sail. But only the sail numbers are counted currently - back in 2004, they were all counted for YNZ levy purposes. Further back then family members were also counted as a single membership - so you didn't see all members of a family when the surveys were done. The numbers involved in recreational boating as opposed to sail - are huge - well over 100,000 and maybe 200,000. RG |
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Richard Gladwell
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Posted: 02 Nov 15 at 2:55am |
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Chris
I was on the Board of Yachting NZ for eight years. I joined in 2004 after we had out worst ever Olympic result (no medals) and our AC team has lost the Cup in 2003 on our home waters. In short the sport was getting a kicking on many fronts - particularly from the general media who played the old tunes endlessly. i thought we could do better than that, and so did a few other good people who got in behind at the same time. Over the next eight years aided by an improved result in 2008 Olympics and even better one in 2012, plus a good comeback from the dead in the 2007 America's Cup - we got the sport back to be better place that it was pre 2000. Plus we got a bunch programs, funding etc in place that should work to maintain the platform we re-built for the future. Whether it does to not remains to be seen. While on the Board we had a never ending string of people coming along and making presentations based on studies that they had done (and usually had received a Sport NZ funding or similar to undertake) all of which had the same theme - that the sport was going down the gurgler, we didn't know what we were doing, we needed to follow the model of some other sport or template that had been dreamed up that worked elsewhere - but always for a recreation rather than a highly competitive sport. We had competitive targets we had to meet for the performance grants - fail on those and you fail on your funding, and we were back to the good old days of NZYF - running to a half person office in Shortland St. For the first year (while trying to rebuild an Olympic program) we had all our funding cut, and some hard criteria put in place if it was to be resumed. At that stage Sport NZ would not fund participation programs and that was up to the various spots bodies and schools. We were able to convince them that they couldn't just run a program which stole all the ripe apples in the orchard, they had to plant the trees first and do all the maintenance and caring to grow the next crop of sailors. Only a fool would ignore the stuff the was coming through in reports, but you had to take it onto the beach and see, or know what would happen, before you took their advice. At the time I had just finished a stint on rowing at a school level and you could see the same issues they had - or were claimed to have had, that existed in sailing. Now Rowing and Sailing account for a big chunk of the NZ Olympic medal goals. Both are boat sports, both are expensive, both need special facilities to operate. I think both bodies are regarded as being run the way a sport should be - deliver results with little grief. You have to have the numbers going through a sport with good coaching and at the same time making the sport fun particularly for new players. At the same time the wild flowers have to be allowed to grow outside the regular programs - and this is usually where the best people come from as they are original thinkers and used to being self-reliant. YNZ has formed a close connection with Team NZ - which was not present prior to 2013, and this can only build the profile and size of the sport. The only measure is in fleet sizes, which are easily measured on an annual basis and they are at least stable if not growing - because there is a lot of excellent work being done at club and school level - which again is not picked up in the so-called "studies". RG
Edited by Richard Gladwell - 02 Nov 15 at 8:40pm |
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