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Richard Gladwell 
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Joined: 29 Oct 15 Location: Takapuna Online Status: Offline Posts: 20 |
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 Topic: Americas cupPosted: 30 Oct 15 at 12:20pm |
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Try the iPad versions of HotspotShield. I use it on a Macbook to get around geo-located content restrictions. I just loaded it onto my iPad (I already have a subscription) and it tested as showing US content, when accessing a site I know runs off geo-location to feed content. So the ETNZ claim on the Qualifiers can't fly because of a lack of a body to hear it. From ACEA's perspective a cynic would say that this was probably their intention all along - the longer it takes to hear the less chance there is of the Qualifiers actually coming to Auckland, even if the ETNZ claim is upheld. If it is ruled that there is compensation to be paid instead this will probably be leveraged back on the teams in some way - so it all becomes rather self-defeating. Much ado about nothing. It is believed that there are two claims to be heard by the Arb Panel if and when it meets - one on the Qualifier issue and the other on some indiscretion of Dalton's which ACEA want to ping him under Article 63. If that can be made to stick, then the team would get onto first strike - which costs them $25,000 for the first infringement - $100,000 for the second and $250,000 for the third and subsequent indiscretion. Quite why they get so excited about Dalts' pithy asides is beyond me. There is way more damage being done to the Cup by the way it is being managed and run, than anything Dalton might utter. In the meantime the Umpires form a jury if required to deal with any racing issues. But there has been so little racing that this facility is also a little redundant.
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blueboy
Really should get out more 
Joined: 27 Aug 10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 512 |
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Posted: 30 Oct 15 at 3:00pm |
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Thanks but I don't understand. "Can't get" - why not? I cannot imagine that a suitable candidate could not be found given a suitable cheque.
They are in the entertainment business and should be grateful for any headlines they can get. I can't even think of anything particularly controversial that he's said in the current cycle. Edited by blueboy - 30 Oct 15 at 3:23pm |
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PeterG
Really should get out more
Joined: 12 Jan 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 822 |
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Posted: 30 Oct 15 at 5:11pm |
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Thanks but I don't understand. "Can't get" - why not? I cannot imagine that a suitable candidate could not be found given a suitable cheque.
They're probably worried that they might spend the rest of their lives in court if they produce a ruling one of the teams doesn't like.
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Peter
Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
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Richard Gladwell
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Joined: 29 Oct 15 Location: Takapuna Online Status: Offline Posts: 20 |
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Posted: 31 Oct 15 at 2:29am |
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"Can't get"? Who in their right mind would want to be put through what the last Jury were put through and still are - two years after the end of the event.
They were attacked and harassed by several parties some of whom were involved in the Cup. Others took it on themselves to "make matters right". Several (if not all of the Jury) are still subject to action by one aggrieved party in the Californian State legal system. It is all very well for some to claim that these guys didn't follow process in the heat of the moment - but what was the option - delay the start of the Cup until it had all gone through proper process and it had all been totally fair to all? The point is that these guys were some of the top people in the sailing judiciary, had served at many Olympics and America's Cups, had been part of a NYSC Expert Panel which largely came down on the side of Oracle Racing in 2010. These sort of attacks and harassment place an enormous toll on their businesses and personal lives, and it is small wonder that no-one is too quick to follow in their footsteps (well, not to the best of my knowledge). For sure it is not that great for people who were found against by the Jury in 2013 and no-one is saying that they are not entitled to due process and redress if errors were made. But don't wonder why the jurists and arbitrators aren't queuing for this gig in 2015-2017. Doesn't matter how many pieces of silver are offered. It is just not worth it. |
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Richard Gladwell
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Joined: 29 Oct 15 Location: Takapuna Online Status: Offline Posts: 20 |
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Posted: 31 Oct 15 at 2:36am |
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Exactly - they need to realise that if they want to foot it with the Big Boys on the international sporting scene they need the controversy between games, as well as the on field action. Sponsors might not be too thrilled with it, but it does pull the general media, and with it the non-sailing fans, and that grows the fan base- which works for the sponsors. These pristine sports events don't fool anyone, and they just lose all their colour without the controversy. Sure there are limits but Dalts (and others before him) makes a lot of very accurate comment at times. How would Tom Blackaller be regarded by ACEA for some of the comments he made in the past? RG |
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Rupert
Really should get out more
Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
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Posted: 31 Oct 15 at 12:05pm |
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The general public I suspect just see it as rich people behaving oddly, rather than as a sport. Formula 1 is going to end up like that if they aren't careful, and football is making great strides to that, yet in the latter case people still feel connected to the game, whereas with sailing they assume we are all richt**ts.
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Chris 249
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Joined: 10 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2041 |
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Posted: 31 Oct 15 at 9:50pm |
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Basically, the point is that the whole idea that watching a sport encourages participation is dubious. This is demonstrated by a wide variety of studies and survey results from many countries (for example as in Wladmir Andreff's work from the Sorbonne, or Grix in Leveraging Legacies from Sports Mega-Events: Concepts and Cases). This may be particularly so in the case of the AC, where the kit is completely different from anything the typical sailor or family would normally use or own. If the AC had a significant effect on participation, especially in its host city, then it would be pretty easy to demonstrate it. So why not demand proof of these claims? Finally, we DO have a good grip on why people don't do sport and why they don't sail, and the modern AC does nothing to alleviate the perceived issues and probably makes them worse. Again, this pretty well demonstrated - so why should we believe those who say the AC increases particpation? When we get down to it, there are studies and surveys that show that the AC will NOT increase participation and may harm it, and basically zero to say it will - so why should the sailing media and the sailing public believe any claims that the AC will help sailing?
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Richard Gladwell
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Joined: 29 Oct 15 Location: Takapuna Online Status: Offline Posts: 20 |
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Posted: 01 Nov 15 at 12:35pm |
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[QUOTE=Chris 249]
[QUOTE=Richard Gladwell]There is no doubt that when the Cup is held in a major world sailing centre (sorry, I don't call Bermuda a major world sailing centre) that it does lift the profile of the sport, and does pull young sailors into it.
With the greatest respect, where's the proof? Where is the evidence of a major boom in sailing in San Francisco over the last couple of years? A very quick Google shows that the number of competitors in the inter-school challenge around that area has not changed at all in many years. RG: It certainly lifted the profile of the sport in SFO - evidenced by the grief when it went to Bermuda. You do need to have the clubs and schools push programs to get new sailors into the sport. Certainly in Auckland there was a big lift in the sports profile when the AC was here, and even in 2013 and its build up, there was a lift in profile which eventually reflects in numbers. Sailors who are on the up, often quote their source of inspiration for getting into the sport as having seen a Whitbread finish, an America's Cup etc The reason being that they see the other side of the America's Cup - big boats going out training each day - stories about boats sailing on TV news a couple of times a week in the build up. They can see the boats and activity at the bases, and so on. If so why is sailing attracting so few young Kiwis according to SPARC? RG: SPARC went out of existence a few years ago, and if they are using YNZ membership numbers then there are a lot of games played to keep the numbers down to reduce the levy the Clubs have to pay YNZ, which makes your membership look low. I look at the numbers participating in Opti Nationals as an indicator of numbers, when the regatta is in Auckland the numbers seem to be on the increase - when it goes to other centres there is the travel cost which affects numbers. But I don't think we are seeing a fall in numbers, or one that is out of line with participation in sport generally. Optis aren't my favorite boat, but they are the entry level class, and a good measurement. When the event is in another location, they mostly get fed the dark side of the America's Cup until the live coverage starts, then it is cool again. The national fervor also kicks in and sailing becomes like any other major sport with international competition. AC doesn't lead the sport, but it is one of its shop windows - like the Olympics (but unfortunately sailing gets swamped with the coverage of other sports), Like the Volvo Ocean Race which again has big impact in a stopover and for about a week before and a month afterwards. Then you might get some lift off world championships and the like. Once again, there seems to be an assumption that major events lift participation rates. This has been studied by many independent academics (especially in relation to the Olympics) and found to normally be untrue. I can get citations later. RG: If you have the programs in place to capture the new sailors it has to be easier with the sport having a raised profile - especially if you are a "top four" sport. Plus you get a lift from Olympic medals. You have to look at the basis of the stuff academics come up with - and whether they actually know anything about the sport, so they can test their theories and findings with a reality check. Plus there is a lot of immigration into the developed sailing countries from people without a sailing culture - so they gravitate towards the sports they enjoyed at "home" or their parents palyed - and stay out of sailing - which they also perceive as being expensive. The "new" AC has huge potential and the general media does "get" the sport and concept because it looks fast, awesome and dangerous. But the AC is appallingly marketed and you would really have to try to think of how to do a worse job than is being done at present. In fact I couldn't think of one thing they could do worse, except maybe have the racing at night. I don't really want to talk about Auckland and New Zealand, but it does demonstrate a couple of things. In Auckland you have a lot of clubs in an area that is good for sailing, but that creates the issues of them working alone, rather than together. And each has a good historical reasons for being established and being where they are - which is that in the 1950's and earlier people didn't really have the ability to drive boats to the club with trailers, and the English model was the norm - where you had a club and a boatpark and people kept their boats at the club and walked or cycled to the club, stayed there for most of the day and went sailing. That model will come back in Auckland because people now just do not have the space at home to store boats. Outside Auckland you have a different model - where there is one club per town (Wellington, Christchurch and Dunedin being halfway houses), everyone sails at the one club and there are really none of the Auckland issues. Oddly enough most of the top sailors don't come from Auckland but from outside - Tauranga has probably produced more top sailors of late than any other centre. More than half the crew from NZL-32 came from outside Auckland, originally. We get the same issue with clubs not working together in Australia, but the sailing participation rate here may be higher these days. RG: You don't have a national AC team in Australia, and haven't had a Volvo OR team either. You do have the Olympic results but like everywhere else the sailing result gets lost in the success of other sports. General media regard sailing medals as soft medals, and don't give the Olympic side of the sport much coverage except on quiet news days. So your sailing profile is always going to struggle against Cricket, AFL, NRL, Rugby etc. Not having a Volvo team in NZ this time was a big mistake and the profile of the sport suffered as a result. I don't think the numbers are really changing that much, everyone has their view of the glory days, some fleets diminish others grow. Any big ticket sports have the same issues as sailing - rowing for instance. There's a couple of us in this thread who are using quantitative data to track trends, and the numbers ARE showing significant differences in overall participation and showing a move away from the high performance classes. The fact that we don't have a sound overall knowledge of where the numbers are going is a bit of an indictment on those running the sport, IMHO. How can you manage something if you don't know what it is, what is has been, and where it is going?
RG: There are massive lifestyle changes underway in society which are driving a lot of what we are seeing in sailing. The black art of tinkering with boats is fast-dying for a number of reasons. I don't think sailing is a sport that you can manage in terms of participation. All you can do is try the best you can, see what the numbers are doing, and if you are getting a good result keep going, and if not then have a re-think. There is no doubt that kids like sailing on fast boats - but that takes a certain mentality to be sustainable in the medium to long term, and most opt for the tactical one-designs. The other issue is parents who think that the most significant thing their kid can do in life is to go to university and get a fancy degree in finance or law - and actively discourage participation in sport to achieve that goal. Of course the kids want to go to University in some location that is remote from their parents, for all the obvious reasons - and in doing so they desert their main sponsor and support network for sailing. But one only has to look at the numbers of relatively wealthy professional sailors (in NZ at least) to recognize the folly of chasing a degree at the expense of sport. Russell Coutts is probably the highest earning sportsman in NZ - but it took him 10 years to complete his Engineering degree. Most of the others have no degrees, but the Olympic sailors and those in the second and third tiers get good government assistance with degree funding o the basis of their sports performance - so the incentives are there, to do both. RG Edited by Richard Gladwell - 01 Nov 15 at 12:36pm |
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Chris 249
Really should get out more
Joined: 10 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2041 |
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Posted: 01 Nov 15 at 9:53pm |
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I still can't see any actual evidence that the AC will actually lift sailing participation, Richard. With respect, saying that a lift in profile "eventually increases numbers" is demonstrated to be false by lots of surveys and studies over many years. And why should we take any such claims by AC supporters on faith?
We could use the analogy with the Olympics. Both the London and Sydney Olympics increased the profile of sport generally, but the simple numbers show that they did NOT result in more people doing sport. Yes, academics may have blind spots, but so can sailors and the sailing media. The difference is that there have been plenty of studies about the factors that drive sports participation and these have actually asked questions and investigated issues, whereas sailing as a sport seems to be resting on completely untested assumptions - assumptions which are probably incorrect according to participation trends within the sport and according to studies and trends across sports generally. Apologies for saying "SPARC". I meant to say SPARC and other organisations that have carried on with studies tracking sports participation trends, such as the Sport New Zealand 2013/14 Active New Zealand Survey. That survey shows sailing a loooong way down in the participation rankings, behind sports like badminton and scuba diving which I assume have a low profile. Going back a bit, the 97-08 trend, for example, showed that for sailing "among all adults, the participant base halved (down 3 percentage
points to 3%)." Data from http://www.srknowledge.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Sport-Participation-Trends.pdf. This was at a time when the AC was being won and defended by NZ and a Kiwi was skippering the Volvo winner. If lifting the profile lifts participation then why was there such a stark drop in participation during the period in which NZ won the AC and Volvo? If the new cats have increased participation then why has the participation rate dropped again more recently? Sure, those who are at the top of the sport may have been inspired by a high profile event, but that is an extraordinarily biased sample by its very definition. It doesn't take into account those who have been turned off a sport, or those who never even considered it because the image is that it's too expensive, time consuming and elitist. Yes, there have been demographic changes in many English-speaking countries - but sports like cycling (which is seen as low class in some Asian countries) are doing well despite such shifts. Canoeing is booming in many English-speaking countries despite demographic changes, so why not sailing? As you say, "All you can do is try the best you can, see what the numbers are doing, and if you are getting a good result keep going, and if not then have a re-think." The numbers are in (in several countries) and the results of the current approach based on elitism are not good, so surely we need a re-think. Apologies if this seems like Kiwi bashing. It's far from that (I'm an admirer of Kiwi sailors as I'm sure everyone in the sport is) and the problem of elitism and a belief that watching creates participation seems to be pretty much global. PS re "So your sailing profile is always going to struggle against Cricket, AFL, NRL, Rugby etc" Yep, sailing has a lower profile than cricket, AFL, NRL, Rugby etc. But not one of those high-profile sports is at the top of the list in PARTICIPATION. Despite the huge sums that flow from TV rights to grass roots promotion, AFL is less popular than soccer, and NRL and union are less popular than volleyball, netball, lawn bowls, canoeing and not much more popular than diving or sailing. Doesn't that illustrate once more than high ratings does not result in lifting participation? Edited by Chris 249 - 01 Nov 15 at 11:20pm |
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Richard Gladwell
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Joined: 29 Oct 15 Location: Takapuna Online Status: Offline Posts: 20 |
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Posted: 02 Nov 15 at 1:22am |
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Chris
Like I said you need to compare fleet sizes on entry level classes to see whether they are going up or down, rather than relying on some study of a statistical or university boffin to tell you how your sport is doing. Also get onto the beach and see the look on the kids faces and see if they have had a lift, or what happens when one of the America's Cup crews come to the club. You have to have the programs working at a very granular level to pull the kids into the sport - which means giving very kid in your club's catchment area between say the age of 10-12 yrs a practical, on the water sailing experience. If you look at the survey you quoted you will see it for adult sport (people above 18years old) and of course the trend is down (by 3%) which is not actually a lot. Particularly amongst a group which is increasingly time starved. If you are trying to grow a sport using 18 years old plus adults, you have long missed the bus. You needed to be into them 10 years earlier and before they left primary school, and with low-entry cost opportunities. Parents will spend if they can see their kid is interested in the sports and wants to do it. If they think it is just the next fad (which is the case for a lot of kids sports as there is a lot on offer), then they will avoid the capital outlay on a sport they don't understand. About 50% or more of the sailing intake are now from non-sailing families which is a dramatic change from 40-50 years ago where you often did your father's sport. Plus if you get kids while they are young and give them the sailing basics for a year or two, often they will come back in their 20's as they know the basics and can increase their skill beyond that of someone who has never sailed and lacks the confidence to try. RG |
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