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iiiiitick View Drop Down
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    Posted: 28 Oct 15 at 9:09pm
Tasar 68kg.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 15 at 10:38pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by Chris 249



And yet ironically, I'm really enjoying sailing a 185kg 20 foot cat. Yeah, stepping the mast hurt my back a couple of times, but weight bearing exercise is actually good for you!
 

Well that's your opinion, fine, leave it in the waste basket by the door on the way out thanks. 

Would you mind learning the most basic of manners, please? 

Originally posted by Do Different

Exactly 'tick.
GRF's focus on weight is perfectly valid but perhaps quite specific to his circumstances; a small person, possibly past his physical peak & sailing off an open shingle beach.

Well yes and no, I also sail on a relatively easy access lake and find humping stuff down there tedious if it isn't my Solution.

As to physical strength, I'm still pretty fit/strong for my size/age, but it isn't strength or fitness, it's the lifting angles and often temperature, as any medico/physio will tell you, it's why baggage handlers maximum was dropped from 32kgs down to 25kgs not so long ago and we talk of 100's of kilos and view 50 kgs as light.

Back in my day I once had to haul a dozen or so old Mistral Polyethylene Competitions around to demo's they weighed 23 kgs and were viewed as absurdly heavy against their light racing version which was 16 kilos, they lasted just the one season. Imagine having to hump Laser Vago's around demoing them? I've seen the guys struggling to lift even the lighter latter day boats onto twin stack trailers and van roofs, it's not pretty.

So portability to show off new craft aint exactly easy.

So lets consider entry level boats and weights for a moment, Laser 2000? what's that 100 +, Vago? 100+, this Icon don't anyone kid you it's the lightest thing going, it aint, a lot heavier than our pals Merlin, 85 kgs plus all up, what else can we offer our man wife combo? RS 500? RS 400 they're all up there, well North of 85 kgs which is almost three times that baggage handlers limit.

So ask yourself, if you see a picture of two folk lifting a boat way above their heads, is it or is it not going to attract attention and sell better than the usual suspects?

What your comparisons lack is logic.  A dinghy cannot be compared to a windsurfer because a dinghy is a much larger object physically, even when it is the same length.  Even the Mirror, a home-built family or beginner's boat, is 20% LIGHTER for its volume than the lightest Raceboard windsurfer or a typical SUP (which doesn't have to sustain rigging loads).

What you are doing is like whining because cars are heavier than motorbikes.  Of course they are - they are bigger objects. Compare a typical sailing dinghy to a typical powerboat or rowing boat/yacht tender of similar length and volume you'll see that the sailing dinghy is normally much, much lighter.  Even individual bits of kit like centreboards are similar in weight, for their size, to kiteboards of similar size.

Facts are facts.  Many sailing dinghies are extremely light objects for their physical size and they are actually lighter, size for size, than the vast majority of comparable objects.  
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 15 at 10:54pm
Originally posted by iiiiitick

Tasar 68kg.


And thereby hangs a tale both sad and true. For, gentle reader, many years ago two wise men from far away dreamed of a wondrous thing to be known as the Tasar that would be as light as unicorn flatulence (editors note - 14'10" of unicorn flatulence weighs about 56kg).  They dreamed that this glorious Tasar Thing would be skinned with a substance so wondrous that even light would verily pass through it like a spirit, yeah and forsooth. And between these sheets would be a board made of foam like the sea itself, as light as the froth on the surf that Homer named Limnoreia, the wave that runs along the shore. And so the wise men made the Thing from these special treasure from wizards of the far-off tribes of DuPont and Dow Corning; the gleaning of centuries of lore and alchemy.  And the two wise men made the Tasar Thing, and it floated on the waters of many countries, and all the men and women who travelled upon the waters saw that it was indeed a light, fast and wondrous thing.  And the men and women of all tribes and countries cared properly for their Things, and laid them gently upon the good soft earth and the bounteous rigging cradles so that they be not harmed, for they were good and gently folk.

And then a Thing came into the hands of a strange tribe from a far-flung corner of the earth, little trod by civilised folk.  And the people of this land were known as the Shinglies.  And the Shinglies took a Tasar, and they bore it down upon the stones of their beach, and they cast the wondrous Thing upon those harsh rocks instead of taking care of it properly. And verily, the wondrously light skin of the Thing was scarred and bruised by the harsh rocks of these rude kin.

And there was much wailing and lamenting from the Shinglies.  Instead of sitting at the feet of civilised people who were wise in lore, and learning how to care for their Thing, they blamed the Thing.  And so, much to the woe of the wise man named Frank, more skins were laid upon the Thing, so that it became heavier - about 71kg for the years of many men, then 68kg.

And so it came to pass that it was the Shinglies themselves who had made the wondrous Thing into a heavier Thing. And the moral of this tale, gentle reader, is that no one should trust any member of the Shingly tribe who complains that boats are too heavy, for it was this cursed rabble themselves who slew the wondrous lightweight Thing by dashing it upon their cursed rocks instead of taking proper care of it.

And let no man doubt that this tale be true, for the wise man named Frank carved it on paper, and many a time when the Tasar tribe met to sup cheese and the wine that sparkles and to bemoan the windshifts, we would sit hushed as he softly spoke of the Shinglies and the evil they wrought.




Edited by Chris 249 - 28 Oct 15 at 11:15pm
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iiiiitick View Drop Down
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Posts: 240 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iiiiitick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 15 at 11:10pm
My 'Wondorous thing' is little sailed these days and has more cosmetic repairs than a Hogarthian syphlitic whore. Crap in the light as well.
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 15 at 11:24pm
Yep, they aren't great in the light.  Ian Bruce says that one of their problems was that they couldn't beat the huge Toronto Albacore fleet by much, if at all, in their typical light wind races.

Mine's a '77 build which has some structural issues along the sidedecks and one slight bruise from a previous owner sliding it along the corner of the old trailer bed.  Not bad for an old boat that has been shipped to the UK (4th in the worlds under a previous skipper) and around a Continent for many championships for nigh on four decades.

The thing I can't understand is handling any comparable bit of good sports equipment without proper equipment.  Maybe Grumpf hasn't caught on to the piece of modern technology we call the wheel, or he hasn't worked out that you can put them underneath boats.  I don't know anyone who would treat a racing bike or decent car in the same way as anyone who puts a good racing boat onto a shingle beach - apart from anything else you'll get cosmetic scratching that will look ugly and impair resale.

While I admire and respect much of British dinghy sailing, and think you do many things better than we do, from what I've seen you are often much harsher on your boats when they are ashore than we are in Oz, so it's not surprising that your boats are often heavier.  But the Tasar seems to show that you cannot build a dinghy light enough to satisfy Grumpf OR strong enough to take the punishment he gives to boats, given the available technology.


Edited by Chris 249 - 29 Oct 15 at 12:03am
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 15 at 8:49am
Originally posted by Chris 249



And yet ironically, I'm really enjoying sailing a 185kg 20 foot cat. Yeah, stepping the mast hurt my back a couple of times, but weight bearing exercise is actually good for you!
 

Well that's your opinion, fine, leave it in the waste basket by the door on the way out thanks. 

Would you mind learning the most basic of manners, please? 

Manners can be like muscles; the more you use them the better they become.  Beer
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 15 at 8:58am
What most light weight boats have (like the Cherub mentioned) is a light hull coupled with an extreme hull shape and a big, unforgiving rig.

What if the light hull is coupled with a stable hull shape and a modest rig? This was how the Mirror did so well, so isn't is possible with modern materials to do a larger, stable boat at a similar weight, for 2 adults. If you want the volume without the weight, you may well have to stick with the pram bow idea, too. All that useless weight forwards having a pointy end...
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 15 at 9:45am
Originally posted by Chris 249


While I admire and respect much of British dinghy sailing, and think you do many things better than we do, from what I've seen you are often much harsher on your boats when they are ashore than we are in Oz, so it's not surprising that your boats are often heavier.  But the Tasar seems to show that you cannot build a dinghy light enough to satisfy Grumpf OR strong enough to take the punishment he gives to boats, given the available technology.


You neither admire nor respect anything British you're a fecking Aussie convict who cannot help himself but disagree with anything and everything writ large here, as to being lectured about manners, here's my answer FOXTROT OSCAR that's as polite as you're going to get it, we're talking about lighter boats, of which there are not nearly enough and you're on about hurting your back rigging a 185 kilo cat.

As to the Tasar of which there are three dragging up and down our shingle and very light they are too which proves it can be done. They just remain very expensive and inaccessible to most, but if you paid attention to the title the requirement is for a modern symmetric, which last time I looked, means with kite.

Frank by the way is a one trick pony.

Oh and the analogy I was using with heavy boards which is also true with boats, you can't get them about in any number to demo them, hence lack of take up.


Edited by iGRF - 29 Oct 15 at 9:48am
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 15 at 9:52am
Originally posted by Peaky

There is no way in the world the Icon you sailed was heavier than a Merlin. Less well balanced on its trolley, maybe. The NS14 that it was based upon is 64kg with all permanent fittings. So the Icon should be less than 75kg I'd have thought. The Merlin is 98kg in a similar state of fit out I believe. The 400 is 129kg ready to sail I think, and the 200 114kg.
But yes, compared to a Cherub at 50kg they are all heavy.


Mate there's every which way it's heavier, it's parked right next door to the Merlin, come down and lift it for yourself as we did frequently last summer putting our backs out, 1st we'd lift the Merlin, easily done by two of us then we'd lift the Icon it takes three to lift it.
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 15 at 9:59am
Finally as I don't want to become more boring about the subject than I already am, it's not just the launch recovery of boats, it's other stuff, I've got the Alto in the drive right now bloody thing rolled downhill and dinged the van of joy, lifting it on and off the trailer to replace the flushing strip, flipping it in the garage to re paint the underhull, all the other stuff that goes on with boats is all a lot more easily accomplished if it's light and as I keep pointing out, we already have thousands of old heavy tubs, what on earth is wrong with something new.

It'll get screwed on handicap by the same forces arguing agains change here no doubt so what's to worry about?
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