Modern symmetric two-hander?

Something that adults can learn to sail quickly without having to have been spoon fed sailing since birth

You could argue that's the sort of area that's thoroughly targeted and well catered for by a whole raft of more entry level boats, rotomoulds and the like. And as its where the manufacturers have been placing their efforts in recent years, rather than in more sophisticated race boats as they did in the 90s, that's probably an area where the money is. We're not getting enough of those people in the clubs though, and need to sharpen our act up in that respect.

You'd think there ought to be a place for a raceboat that suits mid life well sized sailors, is fast and sophisticated without being over complex, but the 59er was as good a punt at that spot as anything I've seen, and sold next to nothing.

There's an interesting problem, in that if you get much below about 1000 PY equivalent popularity seems to drop right off. At that sort of speed you're moving towards a boat that overtakes waves, sails out of the front of gusts, and intrinsically requires more advanced handling techniques than the old barges do.

However if you build a boat that is 15ft plus (for weight carrying) is reasonably light, has a reasonable sized rig and a decent modern hull shape that won't feel like a barge to sail then it is going to be heading for the low 900s if not faster, and its going to take off like scalded cat in breeze and frighten people no matter what.

So I'm beginning to think if you make a nice modern boat it will be too fast to sell, but if you slug it down so it behaves like a 50 year old barge design then you may as well just sell 50 year old barges - or a modern equivalent in materials that are much more tolerant of indifferent maintenance and neglect, and you're back to the semi entry level rotomoulds and things...

Ten or fifteen years ago I was thinking that there was going to be a generation that was trained up in squads, had all the handling techniques dialed in, and we'd get a new wave of popularity of ultra high performance boats with people that were really trained to sail them. Clearly that hasn't happened, and a lot of those folks are sailing things like RS200s, to a very high level with a skill level I couldn't hope to equal, but still basically slowish boats. I was watching their inlands last week and processing the entries, and they are people of a good age range for HP boats, and a skill level I've never been near... I don't pretend to understand it.

Edited by JimC - 27 Oct 15 at 4:42pm

Originally posted by JohnJack Name a class where a practically professional sailor or sailor backed by the chandlers doesn't win the Nationals? What needs to happen is the classes to focus more on the 'amateur' sailor more, rather than just those at the top end.

Originally posted by JimC Something that adults can learn to sail quickly without having to have been spoon fed sailing since birth You could argue that's the sort of area that's thoroughly targeted and well catered for by a whole raft of more entry level boats, rotomoulds and the like. And as its where the manufacturers have been placing their efforts in recent years, rather than in more sophisticated race boats as they did in the 90s, that's probably an area where the money is. We're not getting enough of those people in the clubs though, and need to sharpen our act up in that respect. You'd think there ought to be a place for a raceboat that suits mid life well sized sailors, is fast and sophisticated without being over complex, but the 59er was as good a punt at that spot as anything I've seen, and sold next to nothing. There's an interesting problem, in that if you get much below about 1000 PY equivalent popularity seems to drop right off. At that sort of speed you're moving towards a boat that overtakes waves, sails out of the front of gusts, and intrinsically requires more advanced handling techniques than the old barges do. However if you build a boat that is 15ft plus (for weight carrying) is reasonably light, has a reasonable sized rig and a decent modern hull shape that won't feel like a barge to sail then it is going to be heading for the low 900s if not faster, and its going to take off like scalded cat in breeze and frighten people no matter what. So I'm beginning to think if you make a nice modern boat it will be too fast to sell, but if you slug it down so it behaves like a 50 year old barge design then you may as well just sell 50 year old barges - or a modern equivalent in materials that are much more tolerant of indifferent maintenance and neglect, and you're back to the semi entry level rotomoulds and things... Ten or fifteen years ago I was thinking that there was going to be a generation that was trained up in squads, had all the handling techniques dialed in, and we'd get a new wave of popularity of ultra high performance boats with people that were really trained to sail them. Clearly that hasn't happened, and a lot of those folks are sailing things like RS200s, to a very high level with a skill level I couldn't hope to equal, but still basically slowish boats. I was watching their inlands last week and processing the entries, and they are people of a good age range for HP boats, and a skill level I've never been near... I don't pretend to understand it.

Excellent post. I think the 59er was partly ahead of its time, partly too big and partly unlucky. But I do strongly believe a better weight carrying, more stable, adult hiking 29er is doable and fun.

I think you just need to wait a year or two before the original 29er squaddies move out of 200s in search of something more refined.

Originally posted by iGRF In answer to JimC, it is precisely the rotomoulds that are stifling take up, they are ridiculously heavy, and the point everyone misses with the soaring success of the Aero, is precisely because it is manageable, I've been lucky most of my life to miss back problems, but not since I've taken this stupid sport up, I'm having bowen treatment yesterday and the root cause is stupid heavy boats. Folk really don't like sports that put their backs out before they even start. As to having good guys dominate, I think that ads spice, nothing I'd like more than to line up and see how i do against that lot and now and again, when i got lucky to the first mark I'd dine out on it all week, that was ever the attraction of sailing to me as against power sports where money and engine size designated who won. Good guys are rarely infallible and every now and then God sends them a message with the other wing full of boats/boards, all about to fill the bar later with their tale of how they thrashed so and so to the first mark and then a host of stories of how it all fell apart for them or even not and how they went on to stick it. That is never going to happen in a roto mould.

Originally posted by Peaky Originally posted by JimC Something that adults can learn to sail quickly without having to have been spoon fed sailing since birth You could argue that's the sort of area that's thoroughly targeted and well catered for by a whole raft of more entry level boats, rotomoulds and the like. And as its where the manufacturers have been placing their efforts in recent years, rather than in more sophisticated race boats as they did in the 90s, that's probably an area where the money is. We're not getting enough of those people in the clubs though, and need to sharpen our act up in that respect. You'd think there ought to be a place for a raceboat that suits mid life well sized sailors, is fast and sophisticated without being over complex, but the 59er was as good a punt at that spot as anything I've seen, and sold next to nothing. There's an interesting problem, in that if you get much below about 1000 PY equivalent popularity seems to drop right off. At that sort of speed you're moving towards a boat that overtakes waves, sails out of the front of gusts, and intrinsically requires more advanced handling techniques than the old barges do. However if you build a boat that is 15ft plus (for weight carrying) is reasonably light, has a reasonable sized rig and a decent modern hull shape that won't feel like a barge to sail then it is going to be heading for the low 900s if not faster, and its going to take off like scalded cat in breeze and frighten people no matter what. So I'm beginning to think if you make a nice modern boat it will be too fast to sell, but if you slug it down so it behaves like a 50 year old barge design then you may as well just sell 50 year old barges - or a modern equivalent in materials that are much more tolerant of indifferent maintenance and neglect, and you're back to the semi entry level rotomoulds and things... Ten or fifteen years ago I was thinking that there was going to be a generation that was trained up in squads, had all the handling techniques dialed in, and we'd get a new wave of popularity of ultra high performance boats with people that were really trained to sail them. Clearly that hasn't happened, and a lot of those folks are sailing things like RS200s, to a very high level with a skill level I couldn't hope to equal, but still basically slowish boats. I was watching their inlands last week and processing the entries, and they are people of a good age range for HP boats, and a skill level I've never been near... I don't pretend to understand it. Excellent post. I think the 59er was partly ahead of its time, partly too big and partly unlucky. But I do strongly believe a better weight carrying, more stable, adult hiking 29er is doable and fun. I think you just need to wait a year or two before the original 29er squaddies move out of 200s in search of something more refined.