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PeterG View Drop Down
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Posts: 822 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: New Laser Rag
    Posted: 16 Oct 15 at 9:09am
 If they churn the sails out at a lower price they will kill off the replica market to a large extent and end up with a similar profit.

But they don't, and haven't over several years of competition from replicas, which suggests it's not quite as simple as you suggest! Most likely because the landing cost is somewhat higher than you suggest. 
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Roger View Drop Down
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Posts: 524 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Roger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 15 at 9:25am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Dickieh

Selling sails at 9 x their landed price

You keep making that assertion, but I've never seen any evidence to back it. There are not many other classes that have 250 quid sails.

My limited understanding of basic economics suggests that if you halve the price you have to sell an awful lot more than double the quantity to make up for it.

The accuracy of economic forecasting worldwide suggests that it must be a lot more difficult than rocket science since the rocket engineers hit their targets an awful lot more often than the economists do.


Your right it's a nightmare trying to predict, and with a 200% mark up you'd need to sell over 4x as many products to get the same profit, as your running cost would go up with the volume.

Looking at this mystical 9x mark up on landed price.
Bit of simple maths and estimation (feel free to correct any assumptions):

New Sail £395.00
Ex Vat £329.17
Less Cost of Button? (no idea guess £10.00)

So if there is a 9x mark up that's £35.46 each sail landed in UK...but

Then you need to take off the other taxes etc:


Less Import Duty at 15% (£4.63 per sail)
Less Shipping (again a guess at £5.00 per sail) but could vary a lot depending on time of year etc


So if they are selling at 9x landed price, then the cost at the factory gate is around £25.83, which would include all materials, labour and overheads of the factory, and of course the profit for the sailmaker.

Does this sound reasonable?
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rich96 View Drop Down
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Posts: 596 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rich96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 15 at 9:29am
In reality is it at all possible that a Laser sail can be built and delivered to the UK for £50 ? - including a bag, battens, class royalty etc ?

I'd say definitely not.

Many years ago if you ordered anew Laser they would provide a second sail (if pushed) for 'cost' - which was then £100. That was more than 15 years ago so it might be safe to assume that 'cost' now would be £150 +

Whilst the current retail cost may be high it hasn't really risen massively over that last 15 years or so ?

Its still cheap when compared to many other classes.

Look at it this way - spend £400 a year on a new sail, use your other for training/club stuff, look after your hull/foils and you will have a totally competitive boat for less than £10 a week !

Lots of classes have to buy a new sail each year - most of the Phantoms do and the Finns definitely do.








Edited by rich96 - 16 Oct 15 at 9:43am
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Ardea View Drop Down
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Posts: 70 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ardea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 15 at 10:37am
Laser should be big enough and have enough experience to make the most of economies of scale and have an ability to seek out cheap labour on an international level.  If replicas can be made of a similar or better quality at a significant cost saving by one man bands then something is not right.  My feeling is that laser are either making a large profit, being ripped off at some stage, or running their business poorly.
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 15 at 10:47am
Originally posted by Ardea

  My feeling is that laser are either making a large profit, being ripped off at some stage, or running their business poorly.

Probably yes to the large profit knowing who owns LP these days.
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Ardea View Drop Down
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Posts: 70 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ardea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 15 at 12:14pm
Large profit isn't always a big problem if it's being re-invested into the class or sport through development, or support for the class but it certainly feels to many laser sailors that there isn't any happening.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 15 at 12:27pm
Nothing wrong with making a large profit, it is what business does. If they have decided that max profit is to sell high and accept that people may buy replicas, that is up to them. It is also up to them to decide whether to sail another class if supporting Laser makes them feel like they are being ripped off.
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Ardea View Drop Down
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Posts: 70 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ardea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 15 at 12:52pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Nothing wrong with making a large profit, it is what business does. If they have decided that max profit is to sell high and accept that people may buy replicas, that is up to them. It is also up to them to decide whether to sail another class if supporting Laser makes them feel like they are being ripped off.

I think ta large part of this discussion boils down to people's opinions on whether this is a short term strategy which will ultimately damage the class & the company or if it is a long term sustainable strategy.

I'm certainly not in a position to comment on how much money a company should make from a class, but personally my view is that the prevalence of the replica market shows they have gone too far into putting short term profitability over company and class longevity.  I also fear that if the new sail isn't good enough and they try to shut down the replica market (here I'm speculating wildly on why they patented it) then there will be a reasonable thinning of the class when all the replica users come to renew their sails.

Again a personal decision but when it came to needing a new sail and topmast I decided the investment wasn't worth it.  The resale value of my boat combined with cost of the new sail and topmast could buy me a lot of boat in many other classes.  While this wasn't the only reasoning for leaving the laser class it was a big part of the decision.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 15 at 5:39pm
Originally posted by Rupert

It is also up to them to decide whether to sail another class if supporting Laser makes them feel like they are being ripped off.


Rupert, you're spot on.  If people are unhappy, it's easy to sell up and move on to some fantastic boats. 

Likewise, if people are happy in the laser and happy to buy the products, then the standard of the product or the sellers level of financial gain is really neither here nor there (it pains me to say that).  Everyone owes it to themselves to sail the boat that best gets them out of bed in the morning and rushing down to the club to get out on the water.  If the laser makes you grumpy, vote with your feet and pick another class. 
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Posts: 1760 		Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 15 at 8:15pm
On the sailboats website it's saying £382 for a mk 1 and £395 for a mk2. Considering that when I last bought a laser sail, which must have been in the mid 90's it cost about £320. I don't think it's that bad a price these days really
Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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