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    Posted: 05 Oct 15 at 3:02pm
2 Boats running under spinnaker overlapped on starboard tack are approaching a line of boats in a different race who are on the starboard tack layline to their windward mark.  Clearly as they are leeward boats the smaller boats all meet the definition of obstruction to the 2 overlapped boats.

There is a gap in the line of smaller boats that one of the overlapped boats may fit through, but not sensibly both.
The windward overlapped boat is asking the leeward overlapped boat for room to pass behind the leading "layline" boat whilst the leeward boat is asking the windward boat to give room for them to pass ahead of the following "layline" boat.

Question 1.  As the leading "layline" boat is also an obstruction to the following "layline" boat (Clear astern) does she have an obligation to give the two spinnaker boats room to pass the leading layine boat?

Question 2.  If not, who gets to go through the gap? 
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rogerd View Drop Down
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If they are under spinaker and the smaller boats are on the layline to the windward mark surely the boats under kite are the windward boats and have no rights over the smaller boats or is this a Im bigger than you situation.
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Something like that? 

19 ROOM TO PASS AN OBSTRUCTION
 19.1 When Rule 19 Applies Rule 19 applies between boats at an obstruction except when it is also a mark the boats are required to leave on the same side. However, at a continuing obstruction, rule 19 always applies and rule 18 does not. 
19.2 Giving Room at an Obstruction 
(a) A right-of-way boat may choose to pass an obstruction on either side. 
(b) When boats are overlapped, the outside boat shall give the inside boat room between her and the obstruction, unless she has been unable to do so from the time the overlap began.

Obstruction 
An object that a boat could not pass without changing course substantially, if she were sailing directly towards it and one of her hull lengths from it. An object that can be safely passed on only one side and an area so designated by the sailing instructions are also obstructions. However, a boat racing is not an obstruction to other boats unless they are required to keep clear of her or, if rule 23 applies, avoid her. A vessel under way, including a boat racing, is never a continuing obstruction.  

So: 

Yellow and Blue were overlapped, both on starboard, running towards red and green, both close hauled on starboard tack. 
There is insufficient space for both Y & B to sail between R & G. 
It's Y's choice, as leeward, RoW boat which side to leave the obstructions. If she leaves red to starboard and green to port (i.e. through the gap), then she is outside wrt R, but inside wrt G. 
Similarly, if both try and go through the gap then B is inside wrt R, but outside wrt G.

I would have to wrap a damp towel round my head to think about whether "they have been unable to do so (give room) from the time the overlap began". Gut feel is that it applies - the gap is too small for 2 boats overlapped, and a gap that size always has been. Not sure how much it helps, though, because of the both inside/both outside probleim. Which means that if they force a passage through the gap, they're both guilty (as both outside and inside) of not giving room. Which implies DSQ both. 

Simple "head out of the boat, don't get involved with protests" solution is for both to duck red and green, go behind green where (hopefully) there's a bigger gap. 
If blue goes through the gap & doesn't give room to yellow, she's in danger of DSQ from the breach of 19 + (possibly) not keeping clear as a windward boat. 
Likewise, if yellow doesn't give room and forces blue to luff & flog her kite to avoid green, she's in danger of DSQ for a breach of 19. 

All a bit of a mare. 



Edited by Presuming Ed - 05 Oct 15 at 8:14pm
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I think if there's room for only one boat in a gap then the ROW boat gets it. That seems to me the way the rules are written. Part 2 rules limit the actions of ROW boats, they don't take away ROW. If the gap isn't big enough 19.2b doesn't apply to either boat.

What makes my head hurt a bit is the fact that yellow and blue are overlapped with green. I suspect that green must give them room to go behind reds stern.

However I think there's a sting in the tail: green is still ROW boat, and there is no rule that says green must allow yellow and blue to sail their desired or proper course. Quite the opposite: the overlap was acquired from leeward so green is entitled to sail up to her proper course. So I rather suspect that if green bears away a bit to give yellow and blue enough room to round up behind red and go onto a beat then green has given them all the room she needs to, and if yellow and blue don't want to drop their kites and sail up the beat then that's tough.

So in practice, I think blue is in deep trouble and needs to find a way out in plenty of time. Probably dump the kite and try to gybe behind yellow, because the alternative is going to be to drop the kite and spin up onto a beat.

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Originally posted by Presuming Ed





Something like that? 
19 ROOM TO PASS AN OBSTRUCTION
 19.1 When Rule 19 Applies
Rule 19 applies between boats at an obstruction except when it is
also a mark the boats are required to leave on the same side.
However, at a continuing obstruction, rule 19 always applies and rule
18 does not. 
19.2 Giving Room at an Obstruction 
(a) A right-of-way boat may choose to pass an obstruction on
either side. 
(b) When boats are overlapped, the outside boat shall give the
inside boat room between her and the obstruction, unless she
has been unable to do so from the time the overlap began.
Obstruction 
An object that a boat could not pass without changing course
substantially, if she were sailing directly towards it and one of her hull
lengths from it. An object that can be safely passed on only one side and an
area so designated by the sailing instructions are also obstructions. However,
a boat racing is not an obstruction to other boats unless they are required to
keep clear of her or, if rule 23 applies, avoid her. A vessel under way,
including a boat racing, is never a continuing obstruction.  
So: 
Yellow and Blue were overlapped, both on starboard, running towards red and green, both close hauled on starboard tack. 
There is insufficient space for both Y & B to sail between R & G. 
It's Y's choice, as leeward, RoW boat which side to leave the obstructions. If she leaves red to starboard and green to port (i.e. through the gap), then she is outside wrt R, but inside wrt G. 
Similarly, if both try and go through the gap then B is inside wrt R, but outside wrt G.
I would have to wrap a damp towel round my head to think about whether "<span style="line-height: 16.8px;">they have been unable to do so (give room) from the time the overlap began". Gut feel is that it applies - the gap is too small for 2 boats overlapped, and a gap that size always has been.


Not necessarily. Some time before,  R or G had to have tacked from port on to stbd to join the stbd tack parade.   Before that they were port tack, give way,  not obstructions,  so,  had B and Y been overlapped,  they would not have been 'unable to give room', so whether or not they're required to give room depends on whether or not they were overlapped when the beating boats flopped over onto stbd,  however hard that's going to be for the protest committee to ascertain.   My head hurts too.

Last point of certainty they were overlapped.

Originally posted by Presuming Ed

  Not sure how much it helps, though, because of the both inside/both outside probleim. Which means that if they force a passage through the gap, they're both guilty (as both outside and inside) of not giving room. Which implies DSQ both. </span>
Simple "head out of the boat, don't get involved with protests" solution is for both to duck red and green, go behind green where (hopefully) there's a bigger gap.

But, presumably there's Puce, Chartreuse,  and Taupe,  lined up behind Green and the problem recurs.
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

 
If blue goes through the gap & doesn't give room to yellow, she's in danger of DSQ from the breach of 19 + (possibly) not keeping clear as a windward boat.


Wouldn't that be Yellows first port of call?  Simple rule 11.

Originally posted by Presuming Ed

 
Likewise, if yellow doesn't give room and forces blue to luff & flog her kite to avoid green, she's in danger of DSQ for a breach of 19.

Not unless she eventually goes to leeward of Green:  she can shove Blue up, particularly if she does it before she's AT the obstruction (subject to 17 if applicable).
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

 
All a bit of a mare. 


Well, it's a damn fine problem,  and very clearly described by OP.

Theoretically it's solvable by deciding whether the running boats were overlapped when the last of the (relevant) beating boats reached her close hauled course on stbd.

But there are certainly going to be some 'evidential difficulties'.
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Silly of me to cross swords with you Brass, but the rule says unable to give room at the time the overlap began. It doesn't say anything about when the obstruction starts to exist. So you could say that at no time since the overlap started has it been possible to give water to get through a 10 ft wide (or whatever) gap, even if the 10ft wide gap didn't exist when the overlap started.

Its a bit logic chopping, but you also have to consider that gaps like that grow and shrink. It makes more sense to only consider the gap from the time the boats approach it, because otherwise, to extrapolate what you've said, the boats might even have to evaluate a gap (say between two boats that anchored up) that was out of sight when the overlap began and there's no way to say whether egg or hen came first...

And ultimately, the concept of the rule is that if you can give room you must, but if you cannot then you needn't, which is a thread through several rules and interpreting the gap as being when the boats approach it matches that concept...

Edited by JimC - 05 Oct 15 at 10:08pm
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Thank you Presuming Ed for the Diagram, that was exactly right.

I'm glad I'm not the only one finding this one a bit of a brain pain.  

As you may have guessed I was one of the spinnaker boats, yellow to be precise.  The situation developed faster than I, or I think the helm of the other boat, (which are both circa 40 foot yachts) appreciated.  I was concentrating on passing ahead of green, and only really became aware that there was a problem with the size of the gap when blue came closer than I was comfortable with hailing that they would need room to pass astern of red.  At this point I don't think it would have been possible for us to get behind green (where there was room in this case) in anything approaching a seamanlike way.  So we did both go through the gap, uncomfortably close together, which didn't endear us to green....  However the protest time limit has passed, seemingly without green wanting to spend time and effort in a complicated protest with two boats from a different class.  Can't say I overly blame him for that.  I am left wondering what would have happened in a protest though.  

So this was really one of those that I was trying to dissect afterwards, as opposed to being fully aware in the build up and making an active call.  But hopefully with an idea as to what to do if the situation occurs again, which is possible given the nature of solent racing.  So far though everyone seems as stumped as I am!  

There does seem, in general, to be a small problem with the rules when different "room" situations conflict.  See my previous effort here.  http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11141&title=which-takes-precedence-18-or-19
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 15 at 12:21pm
I am rather surprised as the comment of 'the situation developed faster than we could anticipate'. This implies that either:

1) Neither of the running boats were keeping a proper watch out for the stb close hauled boats

or

2) The boats on stb were on port and tacked in such a manner that the now keep clear boats could not keep clear.

There are far too many times I see situations developing and then a mark or obstruction is reached and people use the 'I didn't have time' to respond when in reality they should have seen the situation developing and made a plan of started to fulfil their room obligations way before it became apparent that they could not..

My take on this is that if Yellow chooses to pass astern of red she is required to allow blue enough room to also pass astern of red. If she cannot do this then she must also pass astern of Green. Remember that Blue does not have to anticipate that Yellow is not going to give her room (and is not required to hail as she is not needing to tack to avoid). 

As Brass said it all hinges on 19.2 (b) but I would suspect that unless Green has just tacked on to stb (at which point she is required to give the keep clear boats time to keep clear as per rule 15) then this may have been a relatively stable situation at which point things become clearer.
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I didn't say it developed faster than we could anticipate.  I said it developed faster than I DID anticipate!  I'm not saying I got this one right, just trying to learn from a situation.

I know that neither I, nor the helm of the other boat, had assessed the gap as too small for both of us until we were really too close to do anything but go through regardless.  Why that is I'm not sure, though I have a suspicion that the way my mind interpreted the scale might have had an impact, as the boats going upwind were significantly smaller.  Meaning a 2 boatlength gap between the upwind boats might have looked ok if your brain is assuming that they are bigger than they actually are.  

My question on your take on it would be,  Why would it be that way round?  Why is it not that if Blue cannot give yellow room to pass ahead of green and still pass behind red she must pass in front of red? After all if that was the only hole in the traffic the ROW boat just lost out in a big way.  

I'm not trying to prove myself right btw, just understand the rules more fully.
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Posts: 822 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 15 at 2:04pm
My take on this is that if Yellow chooses to pass astern of red she is required to allow blue enough room to also pass astern of red. If she cannot do this then she must also pass astern of Green. Remember that Blue does not have to anticipate that Yellow is not going to give her room (and is not required to hail as she is not needing to tack to avoid). 

That seems like the correct course. However, that blighter Blue is then free to nip through the gap between Red and Green, causing all sorts of ill feeling! Nothing really to stop it happening is there? Yellow has to leave Blue room to pass behind Green, nothing says they have to use it, does it? And what if Yellow has to duck a string after Green, while Blue nips the gap and ends up in the distance. Yellow presumably just have to live with that? 
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