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New Laser Rag

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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: New Laser Rag
    Posted: 04 Oct 15 at 8:46pm
I think what Peter describes is EXACTLY what I've seen at my current club and the last one I joined. It's not the boat that has attracted me back to them, it's the people and ethos of our class at our club.... if these guys had chosen solos or supernovas then it would be the same.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 15 at 11:40pm
That expression Lions lead by Donkeys springs to mind.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 15 at 7:51am
The blind leading the blind is more apt imho.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 15 at 7:55am
"People going sailing" isn't as pithy, but more accurate.That many choose not to get into debt to do so, whether new to the sport or old hands, makes sense to me. It is only a hobby, after all.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 15 at 8:24am
Originally posted by Peaky

The blind leading the blind is more apt imho.


Quite the reverse... I feel my eyes have been opened up a bit... Following the old adage of 'sail what they have at your club' has served me well with both the Solo and the Laser. I can't fault the quality of the racing I've been exposed to over the last 3 years compared to the previous ten being blinded by the bling, and blighted by the bull.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 15 at 9:05am
The blind leading the blind is more apt imho.

He shall cast the first stone etc. Can't help feeling that your contributions to this thread are strangely unwilling (as someone who doesn't sail the boat) to take on board anyone with experience of the fleet(s) has to say.

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laser193713 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote laser193713 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 15 at 10:23am
Originally posted by Dickieh

It's about volume giving huge economies of scale. Other sails more developed and different patterns/ materials by different makers selling smaller volumes.  I think nine times markup on landed price in UK is obscene

You are quite right, by selling thousands, hundreds of thousands of Lasers over the years they have done a very good job of maximising profits. By ordering 1000 sails at a time or whatever they do they secure a very good price for themselves, meaning they can make more profit selling the sail to the customer at the market rate, in fact slightly below it. The upshot of that is that Lasers are still being built today unlike so many of the other boats of its time. For you this means that your boat is worth probably 5 times as much as if the laser was a dead class with no new boats being built. A pretty scabby old laser which doesn't leak too much normally fetches upwards of £1000, a leaky one will get around £800. That, for a dinghy which is available in such large numbers is a staggeringly high resale value. Similar boats of that age struggle to sell at all and if they do are worth £500 because anyone who is going to buy one is going to be spending a couple of hundred quid a year to keep and sail it, so they can probably afford £500. 

So, for anyone who moans about manufacturer supplied kit being too pricey, especially when they do manage to sell it all in huge volumes, it is probably worth having a second thought that the builders are doing something to protect your investment. 

Oh and before anyone says "oh but its the class that keeps the prices up, not the builders" - Rubbish! If the boat was not built at the right price and the right quality from the beginning, there would be no class. If all of a sudden you couldnt buy a new one, the class would die out eventually, maybe not completely but certainly to a level where nobody would be able to bulk buy sails. The price of which would likely double...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The Moo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 15 at 11:58am
Originally posted by laser193713


You are quite right, by selling thousands, hundreds of thousands of Lasers over the years they have done a very good job of maximising profits. By ordering 1000 sails at a time or whatever they do they secure a very good price for themselves, meaning they can make more profit selling the sail to the customer at the market rate, in fact slightly below it. The upshot of that is that Lasers are still being built today unlike so many of the other boats of its time. For you this means that your boat is worth probably 5 times as much as if the laser was a dead class with no new boats being built. A pretty scabby old laser which doesn't leak too much normally fetches upwards of £1000, a leaky one will get around £800. That, for a dinghy which is available in such large numbers is a staggeringly high resale value. Similar boats of that age struggle to sell at all and if they do are worth £500 because anyone who is going to buy one is going to be spending a couple of hundred quid a year to keep and sail it, so they can probably afford £500. 
So, for anyone who moans about manufacturer supplied kit being too pricey, especially when they do manage to sell it all in huge volumes, it is probably worth having a second thought that the builders are doing something to protect your investment. 
Oh and before anyone says "oh but its the class that keeps the prices up, not the builders" - Rubbish! If the boat was not built at the right price and the right quality from the beginning, there would be no class. If all of a sudden you couldnt buy a new one, the class would die out eventually, maybe not completely but certainly to a level where nobody would be able to bulk buy sails. The price of which would likely double...


So are the competitively priced repro sails bulk purchased in from somewhere?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote laser193713 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 15 at 3:56pm
Originally posted by The Moo

Originally posted by laser193713


You are quite right, by selling thousands, hundreds of thousands of Lasers over the years they have done a very good job of maximising profits. By ordering 1000 sails at a time or whatever they do they secure a very good price for themselves, meaning they can make more profit selling the sail to the customer at the market rate, in fact slightly below it. The upshot of that is that Lasers are still being built today unlike so many of the other boats of its time. For you this means that your boat is worth probably 5 times as much as if the laser was a dead class with no new boats being built. A pretty scabby old laser which doesn't leak too much normally fetches upwards of £1000, a leaky one will get around £800. That, for a dinghy which is available in such large numbers is a staggeringly high resale value. Similar boats of that age struggle to sell at all and if they do are worth £500 because anyone who is going to buy one is going to be spending a couple of hundred quid a year to keep and sail it, so they can probably afford £500. 
So, for anyone who moans about manufacturer supplied kit being too pricey, especially when they do manage to sell it all in huge volumes, it is probably worth having a second thought that the builders are doing something to protect your investment. 
Oh and before anyone says "oh but its the class that keeps the prices up, not the builders" - Rubbish! If the boat was not built at the right price and the right quality from the beginning, there would be no class. If all of a sudden you couldnt buy a new one, the class would die out eventually, maybe not completely but certainly to a level where nobody would be able to bulk buy sails. The price of which would likely double...


So are the competitively priced repro sails bulk purchased in from somewhere?

No, well some of them may be, but that was not my point. You seem to be missing that bit!

A successful business will charge as much as it can possibly get away with for any product, and laser are clearly selling a lot of sails. So maybe, just maybe, they are doing something right. In doing this thing right they are also doing all the things that I mention above to keep your investment safe and the class thriving. I don't think I need to explain that bit again.

The point is, support your class, your builder and your club and they will support you. If you choose to go and buy a replica then that is fine, I never have, I like to train with what I race with. I also like to support any class and club that I join. I even go to BMW for the service on my car when I know I could get it done cheaper elsewhere, it will pay off when I go and trade it in...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 15 at 4:46pm
Originally posted by laser193713


No, well some of them may be, but that was not my point. You seem to be missing that bit!

A successful business will charge as much as it can possibly get away with for any product, and laser are clearly selling a lot of sails. So maybe, just maybe, they are doing something right. In doing this thing right they are also doing all the things that I mention above to keep your investment safe and the class thriving. I don't think I need to explain that bit again.

The point is, support your class, your builder and your club and they will support you. If you choose to go and buy a replica then that is fine, I never have, I like to train with what I race with. I also like to support any class and club that I join. I even go to BMW for the service on my car when I know I could get it done cheaper elsewhere, it will pay off when I go and trade it in...

As a former Laser sailor (of around 14 years total) the biggest bug bear has ALWAYS been the price/quality of the sails (and general price of class specific spares).

Now... I was told by a LP employee that if I called up and wanted to do a fleet deal of around 10 sails they would match the price of ANY replica sail currently on the market (at the time around a £200 per sail discount over list).

So you tell me who is supporting who? If the builder was not so short sighted as to profiteer over the sail then the current situation with replicas in the Laser class would not exist.

You can harp on about royalties being paid, sails being quality controlled (don't go there, I have seen huge variations in brand new Laser sails). Sure there will be a small premium to pay for having made sure the royalty was paid (or not given the current court case) plus the builder staying profitable so they can supply said boats and spares but it should be proportionate and not at a level where you alienate your market (which is what LP and ILCA have done IMO).


Edited by jeffers - 05 Oct 15 at 4:47pm
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