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Chris 249 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
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Joined: 10 May 04
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Simple Racing Rules
    Posted: 20 Aug 15 at 2:18am
Originally posted by JohnJack

Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by JohnJack

 I think the rules need to look at overtaking down wind. 
We are in Championship Season so all along the southcoast as we speak there is someone in the midfleet rounding the windward mark and stuffing high on the reach with a gaggle of faster boats trying to get over them.
Happens allot in Handicap racing as well. We struggle on our lake when with the kite up and trying to overtake slower Mono rigged boats they stuff us up well above the course to the next mark.
Once there is sufficient overlap the lower boat shouldn't be allowed to point further up

The rules should just be changed so the overtaking boats with their big rigs have to keep well above the slower boats. Tongue   Nothing worse than some *&^%$%$ coming past 2" to windward, blanketing you terribly, and then whining when you try to fend them off.  If they want an easy overtaking move then they should just go by two or three lengths to windward.

In some hot one design fleets I know it's accepted that when the fast guys are coming through on the reach after a bad first reach, they either go way up or way down, because no matter what class, anyone trying to come just to windward of a boat on the reach is going to get luffed.

If you are faster, stay clear!  I may add that our quickest bit of kit is the fastest or second fastest out of the 150 or so active racing boats in our city, and my slowest being a Radial which is one of the slower classes, so this POV is from someone who sees two sides of the story.

Obviously you have never sailed on a small lake where you don't have that much room.
It would make small lake sailing far less processional and a bit more interesting 

The normal course on our current lake can take us 9 minutes per lap, and we share it with several classes of dinghies and about 20-30 small racing yachts; that's a pretty small waterway for a 20' cat. The other club fits a fleet of 10-13 dinghies as long and fast as FDs on the same waterway.  Our old club had a 120m wide pinch point through which we had to tack a fleet of singlehanders that are as fast and manouevrable as an International Canoe, in a total fleet that could easily consist of 70 dinghies and boards.  Those are not huge waterways.

It wouldn't be very interesting for the sailors of slower boats if they were not allowed to avoid getting rolled by faster boats just to windward and being blanketed each time. While I'm not one for luffing duels, it is damn annoying when people come just to windward and slow you down and then get annoyed when you indicate that they could easily have gone just a bit further to windward and caused less hassle.

Faster boats normally have more options, including the option of going underneath the slower boats ahead.  For some reason some of them seem to think that it's unthinkable for them to be slowed by being to leeward of boats, but it's fine for other boats to be slowed by being to leeward of them.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Joined: 10 May 04
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 15 at 2:45am
There's one form of "no rules" sail racing - pro slalom windsurfers.  They dropped the rules a few years ago due to too many "legalistic protests".

However;

1- they do very short races with just 8 competitors per heat;
2- the speeds are extremely high (500m speed record for slalom boards is about 44 knots IIRC) and therefore in a completely different dimension to dinghies;
3- they 'perform' in front of judges, who can inflict penalties for dangerous sailing - which seems as arbitrary as any protest.
4- the judges say "no rules implies you you have a different attitude on the course and have big b)lls and go for it" to compete.  They admit it might change when someone gets injured badly - not exactly what we want at a local club;
5- it's accepted that if someone "goes for it" and causes a crash, the other party will just have to deal with it.  "Sometimes it's unfair, but that's the way it goes."
5- there seems to be a fair bit of biff and aggro;
6- the equipment is less expensive to fix and these pros don't pay for it anyway, unlike most dinghy racers;
7- even a former world champ says that anyone who hits him too often will get "a payback" - not really what most of us want to get into in a dinghy club.

See the vid at   

http://www.surfertoday.com/windsurfing/12081-slalom-windsurfing-the-no-rules-rule-is-excitingly-dangerous

It shows some very angry people from 2:40-ish 2.50-ish.  Around 6:10 there's a dangerous high speed collision that led to the guy who got hit trying to punch his opponent out (around 7:30), and the closing credits show silly barging and aggro pushing, shoving and grabbing.

It doesn't look like fun to me.  Nor can I recall anything similar incidents when I was in slalom racing under ISAF rules, against some of the same pros.
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DiscoBall View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
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Posts: 305 		Post Options Post Options   Quote DiscoBall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 15 at 7:28pm
Similar to that Chris -  I've been doing some kayak racing for the last couple of years. 

There are no 'when boats meet' type rules and, when the governing body tried to instigate some simple rules a while back, there was a strong attitude of 'we don't need no rules'.

It works fine at local level, where the vibe is very positive.  There's still a bit of confusion at marks due to there not being any defined priority, but any issues are usually resolved by apologies all round.

However, at higher level, it does (unsurprisingly) descend into a game of intimidation.  With problems of shouting, swearing and pushing and suchlike aggro.

Sailing does have similar problems. Arguably, it's as much to do with many sport's excessive focus on 'serious' competition, leading to a loss of perspective by those competing.  But at least the rules and associated protest system give you some comeback and control of bad behaviour, imperfect though they are.
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