Start line colision

Overtaking boat keep clear was in the first IYRU rules in 59. 

I'd go with 15. (And 14, but exonerated due to lack of damage)

It would seem to, but I was influenced in my thinking by Case 30, which to me seems to be to be saying that the clear behind boat was already failing to keep clear just before she overlapped the rudder of the other boat, so was the first to break a rule. My understanding was that subsequent events were a consequence of astern breaking that rule, so ahead gets exonerated.

So in Brass's point, I guess I hitch my cart to 12, since the subsequent RRS15 breach would not have occurred if astern had kept clear.

Is that a reasonable guideline for amateur PCs Brass? Look for the first rule breach and penalise for that, and then decide whether subsequent rule breaches by the other boat were inevitable after the first one (in which case exoneration comes in) or alternatively could readily have been avoided (in which case penalise both)?

Edited by JimC - 04 Aug 15 at 8:11am

The trouble with that ultra literal interpretation is that it suggests that if boat A is 1 mm astern of boat B then A is keeping clear of B since B can change course in either direction without making contact.

However, if we go to case 30 and Case 88 it seems that a bit more than that is required. In particular Case 88 says:

‘Keep clear’ means something more than ‘avoid contact’; otherwise the rule would contain those or similar words.

The implications of that seem to me to be are that if the keep clear boat is so close to the other boat that ordinary relative variations in speed through natural changes in wind and water are liable to to bring them in contact without action by the crews then it is not keeping clear. So it seems to me that on small boats on flat water with a steady wind that distance might be a moderate number of inches, on big boats in a rough sea it might be several feet, but either way if astern establishes an overlap on aheads rudder while she is within that sort of range then she was failing to keep clear immediately before establishing the overlap, and the subsequent collision would not have occurred without that rule breach. But I am probably wrong!

Originally posted by JimC Originally posted by laser193713 If he plainly sails up behind you then he is the overtaking boat and must keep clear. No such rule. I'm not Brass, but lets go through this. It started off with you (Y) more or less stopped on the start line and the other boat (O) coming from behind, no overlap. RuLe 12 applies, O must keep clear of Y. O claims that he gained an overlap to leeward of Ys rudder, and became ROW boat, so Rule 11 starts to apply, and Y will henceforth need to keep clear of O. So far so good, but we then get onto part B. Rule 15: When a boat acquires ROW she shall initially give the other boat room to keep clear. And you need to read this with the definitions of room and keep clear. If O is alongside Ys rudder then Y cannot turn to windward or the stern swing will make contact. So Y is unable to turn to windward, which I think means Y has not been given room to keep clear. In addition, reading case 30, I think that there's a sound argument that H, in making the overlap within inches of Ys rudder, was not keeping clear just before the overlap occurred. So, unless a wiser (wo)man on the PC corrects me, I disqualify H under rule 12 and rule 15, and exonerate Y for a breach of rule 11 that was a result of H breaking 12 & 15. Case 24 and 30 in the case book are worth reading. However, and its a big however, when you hear the other party's version of events these things can look very different...

Edited by laser193713 - 04 Aug 15 at 9:32am