New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Windward Mark on Port
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Windward Mark on Port
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
limey View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 21 Dec 05
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 46 		Post Options Post Options   Quote limey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Windward Mark on Port
    Posted: 24 Jul 15 at 12:21am
I am approaching the windward mark on port with a boat below and slightly ahead (though overlapped). As we enter the 3 boat length circle both port tack boats need to bear away to avoid a starboard tacker.

Does the leeward port tacker have to give me room to bear away to avoid the starboard tacked boat?

Would the situation be the same if we were outside the 3 boat circle

Thanks
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 15 at 3:59am
Yes, if PL passes below S, PL must give PL room to pass between PL and S under rule 19.2( b ).  See Case 11.

CASE 11
Definition, Obstruction
Rule 14, Avoiding Contact
Rule 19.2(b), Room to Pass an Obstruction: Giving Room at an Obstruction
Rule 20.1, Room to Tack at an Obstruction: Hailing
Rule 21(a), Exoneration
When boats are overlapped at an obstruction, including an obstruction that is a right-of-way boat, the outside boat must give the inside boat room to pass between her and the obstruction.

No, the entitlement to mark-room makes no difference.

Mark-room under rule 18 is not the same as the room PL is required to give under rule 19.
Back to Top
tgruitt View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 02 Dec 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2479 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tgruitt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 15 at 1:02pm
Really? If I was that leeward boat slightly ahead I would never let the other port tacker have any room, that boat sailed itself in there, it should slow down and wait to clear any starboard tack boats.
Needs to sail more...
Back to Top
AlexM View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 10 Jan 06
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 857 		Post Options Post Options   Quote AlexM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 15 at 1:21pm
Yep.... but taking that same view what happened if the Leeward boat wanted to tack because of the Starboard boat? Called water(room) on him and the response was sorry m8 you sailed there, bear away and go behind it (even if it was a big bear away)
Leeward boat decides the situation, if they decide to tack they can call it on the windward boat but if they duck it must leave room if the windward boat decides to duck also.

Edited by AlexM - 24 Jul 15 at 1:22pm
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 15 at 2:01pm
See you in the room Tom, but it won't be a long hearing!
Back to Top
jeffers View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 29 Mar 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 15 at 2:57pm
Originally posted by tgruitt

Really? If I was that leeward boat slightly ahead I would never let the other port tacker have any room, that boat sailed itself in there, it should slow down and wait to clear any starboard tack boats.

The key part here is ahead but overlapped. Overlapped means you can call for room to duck if you are the give way boat (but cannot then tack off you must duck if you call for room to duck).

If W is clear astern then they have no right to call for room from L to duck the obstruction.


Edited by jeffers - 24 Jul 15 at 2:59pm
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
Back to Top
tgruitt View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 02 Dec 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2479 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tgruitt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 15 at 5:45pm
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by tgruitt

Really? If I was that leeward boat slightly ahead I would never let the other port tacker have any room, that boat sailed itself in there, it should slow down and wait to clear any starboard tack boats.

The key part here is ahead but overlapped. Overlapped means you can call for room to duck if you are the give way boat (but cannot then tack off you must duck if you call for room to duck).

If W is clear astern then they have no right to call for room from L to duck the obstruction.


Don't come near me calling for room to duck then, you're not getting any!!
Needs to sail more...
Back to Top
Andymac View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 04 Apr 07
Location: Derbyshire
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 15 at 8:20pm
Originally posted by tgruitt

Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by tgruitt

Really? If I was that leeward boat slightly ahead I would never let the other port tacker have any room, that boat sailed itself in there, it should slow down and wait to clear any starboard tack boats.

The key part here is ahead but overlapped. Overlapped means you can call for room to duck if you are the give way boat (but cannot then tack off you must duck if you call for room to duck).

If W is clear astern then they have no right to call for room from L to duck the obstruction.


Don't come near me calling for room to duck then, you're not getting any!!


Make sure I'm not the Starboard boat when you (don't) do it!!!
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 15 at 11:46pm
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by tgruitt

Really? If I was that leeward boat slightly ahead I would never let the other port tacker have any room, that boat sailed itself in there, it should slow down and wait to clear any starboard tack boats.

The key part here is ahead but overlapped. Overlapped means you can call for room to duck if you are the give way boat (but cannot then tack off you must duck if you call for room to duck).

If W is clear astern then they have no right to call for room from L to duck the obstruction.

Firstly, the rule creating an entitlement to room to pass between the leeward boat and the starboard tack boat is rule 19.  Unlike rule 20 (Room to tack), which creates an entitlement to hail for room to tack, rule 19 contains no express entitlement for any boat to hail.

Much less does rule 19 impose any obligation (similar to the rule 20 obligation to tack as soon as possible) on the hailing boat following a hail.

The leeward boat must give the overlapped windward boat room regardless of whether the windward boat hails or not, unless the leeward boat has been unable to [give room] from the time the overlap began (rule 19.2( b )).

Note there is no three boat length zone in connection with rule 19:  it applies when boats are at an obstruction.  The inside boat might become overlapped quite late and close to the obstruction, and as long as the leeward boat is able to give room (which she will usually be able to do by bearing away, taking stern-kick into account etc), she must do so.

If a leeward boat protested a windward boat for hailing for room, and then tacking away, the only grounds that might be available would be under rule 2 for a deceptive hail.

I would be very careful about considering such a protest.

For a start, I would tend to be quite sympathetic (depending on the facts) to a defence from the windward boat that she tacked because she was concerned that the leeward boat was not giving her the room to which she was entitled.  She might or might not have protested the leeward boat for not giving room:  that is entirely up to her

I would not consider a hail that did nothing more than paraphrase rule 19, for example 'You must give me room there', or even 'room' or 'water' to be deceptive.  Case 47 is the relevant case on deceptive hails

CASE 47
A boat that deliberately hails ‘Starboard’ when she knows she is on port tack has not acted fairly, and has broken rule 2.

The requirement is that the boat must know she has no entitlement and make a conventional hail 'claiming' that entitlement.  In the rule 19 room case, the windward boat would actually have an entitlement and Case 47 would not support finding a breach of rule 2.  Even if the hail was made while still clear astern, I would be happy that if it was made in anticipation of an entitlement, it was OK.
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 15 at 5:22am
Originally posted by tgruitt

Don't come near me calling for room to duck then, you're not getting any!!

Come on Tom, this is a pretty fundamental rule. If you don't give room, and the alternative is spearing an utterly innocent starboard tack boat then you're going to get a long sharp bow where it will quite spoil your day, and then a thankfully short protest meeting in which you'll get a DSQ while being unable to sit down.

Edited by JimC - 25 Jul 15 at 5:26am
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy