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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Who can protest?
    Posted: 03 Jul 15 at 2:43am
If she changes course and does not give P room to keep clear she breaks rule 16.1
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 15 at 6:40pm
Assuming that there are new rules in the pipeline, how do we get a change to the nonsense that a legitimate protest can be kicked out if you don't say "protest", surely "do your turns" should be allowed, particularly if we are trying to encourage sporting behaviour.  As I see it, if there is an incident and nobody says protest, the perp knows he is home free if "protest" was not the first word uttered.

This particular case shows even more what a nonsense the current position is, surely as an observer it is reasonable to establish whether turns will be completed before taking action as a third party?

I appreciate this is how the rules are right now, nut surely we need something that encourages rule observance at club and open meeting levels?
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Posts: 1810 		Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 15 at 7:43pm
What, you expect ISAF to listen?
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 15 at 10:29pm
How would the third party indicate that other than by saying protest?  We should all grow up and recognise that it's not aggressive it's just a way of starting self-policing of the rules.
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 15 at 10:57pm
Its not about being agressive, in most cases I want someone to "Do your turns" this is a perfectly reasonable request ... if they don't do the turns, then I would like to say "Protest", it seems completely wrong that saying "Do your turns" precludes the opportinity to protest.  Likewise in the case discribed in this thread, it seams wrong that the opportunity for a third party to protest about an incident is voided, should the third party allow the offenders time to sort it out between themselves.

Sargesail, no doubt you will advise me that you have to say protest, my point is that the Rules will be reviewed in 2016 and it would be good to introduce a system that I am sure the vast majority of club and open meeting sailors would prefer.
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 15 at 11:39pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

Its not about being agressive, in most cases I want someone to "Do your turns" this is a perfectly reasonable request ... if they don't do the turns, then I would like to say "Protest", it seems completely wrong that saying "Do your turns" precludes the opportinity to protest.  Likewise in the case discribed in this thread, it seams wrong that the opportunity for a third party to protest about an incident is voided, should the third party allow the offenders time to sort it out between themselves.

Sargesail, no doubt you will advise me that you have to say protest, my point is that the Rules will be reviewed in 2016 and it would be good to introduce a system that I am sure the vast majority of club and open meeting sailors would prefer.



No I'm not going to say that.  My argument in favour of the clear and singular way of initiating formal proceedings is this:

That in many incidents there is preamble shouting/discussion before there is actually an infringement.  Let's take as an example a Windward Leeward where L feels that W is not keeping clear.  The use of the word 'protest' makes a very clear delineation between the pre-chat, and the fact that L considers that there has been an infirngement, which in this case would be accompanied by a change of course to leeward.

And on the other hand I don't see why you can't accept that 'protest' means -'I consider that you have infringed me and thus expect you to exonerate yourself ('do your turns')'.

Finally in your example above it is surely appropriate that the two potential offenders know that there is a third party interest, including intent to protest, as they sort it out among themselves.

Personnally I suspect that many club and open sailors would soon wish for a return to the status quo ante if this suggestion were adopted.
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 15 at 12:33am
Originally posted by davidyacht

Assuming that there are new rules in the pipeline, how do we get a change to the nonsense that a legitimate protest can be kicked out if you don't say "protest", surely "do your turns" should be allowed, particularly if we are trying to encourage sporting behaviour.  As I see it, if there is an incident and nobody says protest, the perp knows he is home free if "protest" was not the first word uttered.

This particular case shows even more what a nonsense the current position is, surely as an observer it is reasonable to establish whether turns will be completed before taking action as a third party?

I appreciate this is how the rules are right now, nut surely we need something that encourages rule observance at club and open meeting levels?
You received cogent answers to all the questions you ask here in a long thread that you started in August 2014 here.

How do we get a change in the rules?

Originally posted by jeffers

Submit a request to the RYA rules group then David.

'Do your turns' should be allowed

Originally posted by gordon

Hailing "Protest" is a clear and unambiguous message. It means 'I believe that you have broken a rule. I am initiating the dispute resolution process that the sport of sailing has decided to use and that both you and I, when entering the race, have agreed to use. I am informing you of my intention, when I get ashore, to lodge a formal protest. You now have the opportunity to take an alternative penalty if such a penalty is appropriate'

Not bad for one short word. 

Shouting "Do your turns'  on the contrary means 'You have annoyed me but I cannot really be bothered to do anything about it. 

ISAF rules are for use worldwide. All sailors throughout the world use exactly the same word to initiate sailng's chosen dispute resolution process. Even the French now use 'Protest' often pronounced 'Proté' and have invented the appalling neologism 'Protestation' to as a noun meaning Protest.

Critics of formality in this and other aspects of sailing seem to forget that even when they are sailing at their local club on an evening race they are competing on the first rung of the organised sport of sailing. 

Football players may enjoy a kick around in the park, with no referee and limited application of the rules. However, as soon as competition becomes in any way formal the man with the whistle is present, trying to apply, to the best of his ability the same rules as apply at the World Cup Final.

As sailors we should be proud of the self-policing tradition of our sport. We should do everything we can to reinforce that tradition. Using the word Protest is one way to do this.

Protest not the first word uttered?

Originally posted by Brass

For any level, I think that one or two words, such as 'Do your Turns Protest!' or 'Geeze you hit me Protest' should be quite acceptable.  The delay in uttering a short phrase is, in my opinion, trivial and should be disregarded by a protest committee.  Note we are talking in terms of only a few seconds here.

Wait for turns to be completed before hailing protest

That is not how your MNA has interpreted  the rules

Originally posted by Brass

... a pause while you look to see whether they have done turns or not is not acceptable.

RYA 1999/1
... A boat that waits to see whether another boat will take a penalty ... has not acted at the first reasonable opportunity.

We need something that encourages rule observance

Why do you say this?

Do you have any evidence that establishes that rules observance is good, bad or indifferent?


Edited by Brass - 06 Jul 15 at 1:06am
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 15 at 12:34am
Originally posted by craiggo

What, you expect ISAF to listen?

Yes, you'd better believe that if the RYA puts in a rules submission it will be carefully considered by the ISAF Racing Rules Committee, on which the RYA is represented, and eventually by the ISAF Council.
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andymck View Drop Down
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Posts: 397 		Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 15 at 1:35am
The words used is always an interesting one.
I find "Do your turns" as the first thing uttered quite aggressive.
"Protest" is not.
This gives the protestee time to think without being put under pressure.
I have no issues at all with the wording of this, as accept that there can be a small delay, as long as it is the first hail between the boats, following the conclusion of the incident.
They can discuss whatever else after.
It is simple, clear and non confrontational. Unlike phrases such as "do your turns", as they are often in my experience shouted by the more aggressive sailor, who is often the one pushing the rules beyond the limit, and usually has no understanding of the word onus.


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Posts: 85 		Post Options Post Options   Quote deadrock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 15 at 10:51am
I happen to think the rule is correct as it is. ISAF is International, and so are its Rules (and ours). 'Protest ' is unambiguous and difficult to misinterpret, regardless of one's parent language. And it is mandatory in the Rule: 61.1(a); 'good manners' don't come into it. I personally think the imperative "Do your turns!" is more aggressive than "Protest", which is merely a statement.

However, "The fundamental principle is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty, which may be to retire."  If someone calls to me: "Do your turns" I am fully entitled to ignore them, but if I know I was in the wrong I should still take the appropriate penalty.  The drawback is that this encourages the non-protestor to think that it was their call that got me to take the penalty, and they'll persist in the practice, only to be surprised when I ignore them on a future occasion. The answer is to always be in the right!
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