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Woodburner View Drop Down
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Joined: 13 Mar 15
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Posts: 332 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Woodburner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: PYS Online
    Posted: 07 May 15 at 3:54pm
It's not the rest of the world views it's the views of those of you left on this forum, who lets face it are not the typical norm. You all in your own way have died in the wool values that will absolutely not let you see the wood for the trees.

A lot of people, like me have a simple logic about things and that logic applied to say the jolly old Laser, which simply hasn't changed and most of its users are happy enough to race each other, but ask them how they feel about their handicap 'improving year on year' and it is now becoming with some faint embarrassment.

A boats handicap should be fixed, unless it physically is improved, once it has settled. Only a person or group of persons handicap should be variable and if you all in your denseness can't spot that then I'm sorry for you, but then I always have been, you're dinghy sailors after all. Smile


Edited by Woodburner - 07 May 15 at 3:55pm
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Joined: 05 Dec 14
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 15 at 4:02pm
Originally posted by Woodburner

 which simply hasn't changed

wrong - it has changed over the years, and will continue to evolve at a very slow rate.  But it is certainly faster than it was when i was sailing them in the 90's imho. 


Originally posted by Woodburner

and most of its users are happy enough to race each other

yes- that's very true, and one recession later and most couldn't be happier.  Some have tried other things, but ultimately find pure competition to be best served in one designs.  

It's what you do with the rest of us - the less competitive maybe.  Or folks whose choice of boat can outweigh the cut and thrust of a solid one design fleet.  Your experiment will prove a valuable case study, but I suspect you need to give it time and patience- it will be an organic process after all.  


Edited by turnturtle - 07 May 15 at 4:03pm
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Joined: 11 Aug 04
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 15 at 4:23pm
Isn't it possible that when the Laser's handicap was static (as were most boats when returns were paper) it was wrong? Yes, you could move 100 other class handicaps around it to counter that, but isn't it easier to move the one?

My comment about world views was to do with your rubbishing of everyone you wrote about in your post - few of whom had anything to do with this forum.

Is there anyone else on here from Hythe? I'd love to hear the real story behind all this.
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Woodburner View Drop Down
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Posts: 332 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Woodburner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 15 at 4:30pm
The real story? What real story? You're handicap system is f**ked about by computers and inland sailors dominate the input, I moaned, we had the RYA down,  Bas Edmonds & co, they said something new is afoot watch this space for an announcement at the dinghy show, there was none, that is all, it is the same old same old gerrymandered puddle jumpers and class protectioners mess it has always been and always will be unless some one or group of individuals who genuinely enjoy handicap racing to the exclusion of all else, move to change it. That is all.

Here we go again another py thread, f**k it, f**k off, I'm no longer interested, it's done, get back to your puddles and crunch data like your good at.


Edited by Woodburner - 07 May 15 at 4:34pm
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Simon Lovesey View Drop Down
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Posts: 349 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Simon Lovesey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 15 at 4:34pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Simon, when you say "no longer supporting", it can have 2 meanings. I assume you mean working with the data, rather than no longer believing in the yardstick and setting up a rival system?

No longer working with the RYA data.

But given the ever increasing fragmentation of classes and evolution (speed differentials) of even so called One Designs,  IMHO an innovative use of handicapping and data is the only way forward.  I have written a paper outlining some of my thinking,  and we have started to implement some of the ideas eg pro-active handicapping of new designs.  
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Simon Lovesey View Drop Down
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Posts: 349 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Simon Lovesey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 15 at 4:34pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Simon, when you say "no longer supporting", it can have 2 meanings. I assume you mean working with the data, rather than no longer believing in the yardstick and setting up a rival system?

No longer working with the RYA data

But given the ever increasing fragmentation of classes and evolution (speed differentials) of even so called One Designs,  IMHO an innovative use of handicapping and data is the only way forward.  I have written a paper outlining some of my thinking,  and we have started to implement some of the ideas eg pro-active handicapping of new designs.  
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MikeBz View Drop Down
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Joined: 21 Apr 04
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Posts: 536 		Post Options Post Options   Quote MikeBz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 15 at 4:39pm
 To separate the wood from the trees you have to understand that handicaps are relative, not absolute.  Therefore they can change even for a mythical craft which has never changed since the dawn of time - it makes no difference whether you nail down A and move B or nail down B and move A.   They may also change relative to other boats because more/better data has been gathered which indicates that it wasn't absolutely bang-on (not that there is such a thing) at the first guess which would of course be extremely unlikely.

Having said all that I think the PY scheme has lost its way and is becoming too reactive to in sufficient/poor data, or data which changes the relative handicaps of boats A & B even though that data may not encompass a significant number of results of those 2 types actually sailing against each other.  My club contributes to this by modifying handicaps based on extremely small sets of data/numbers of boats.  If you have e.g. 10 boats of type A sailed by a range of abilities and 1 boat of type B what conclusions can you possibly draw by just looking at the recorded times and ignoring the abilities of the sailors?

The SailJuice PYs seem to be a lot closer to reality these days and are markedly different.
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 15 at 4:49pm
Originally posted by Woodburner

The real story? What real story? You're handicap system is f**ked about by computers and inland sailors dominate the input, I moaned, we had the RYA down,  Bas Edmonds & co, they said something new is afoot watch this space for an announcement at the dinghy show, there was none, that is all, it is the same old same old gerrymandered puddle jumpers and class protectioners mess it has always been and always will be unless some one or group of individuals who genuinely enjoy handicap racing to the exclusion of all else, move to change it. That is all.

Here we go again another py thread, f**k it, f**k off, I'm no longer interested, it's done, get back to your puddles and crunch data like your good at.

here's a thought, back in the day, no really back in the day, even before you were born, yacht racing was done on the basis that a combination of the best sailors and best boats won on the day.  There's no magic formula to get that balanced off, either in boat performance as per IRC or PY, or crew skill factor as per 'Golf', it's just the way it was and could be in the future.  

'Racing Scratch' is going right back to the roots of the sport before it was even recognised as a sport per say... it's an interesting experiment.




Edited by turnturtle - 07 May 15 at 4:51pm
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craiggo View Drop Down
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Joined: 01 Apr 04
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Posts: 1810 		Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 15 at 6:50pm
I post one moan about the website and get a couple of very helpful pm's and 3 pages of nonsense about the whole system being broken. The only reason the system is broken is because people who think they know better won't use it. As I said before, chumps!
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 15 at 7:10pm
Actually Graeme is trying something different- perhaps you can tell him it won't work and get ready for I told you so's etc   But surely you can a acknowledge it's a different approach that certainly is more interesting than trying to fix something that isn't broke, but he ultimately just don't like???

Edited by turnturtle - 07 May 15 at 7:40pm
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