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turnturtle View Drop Down
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    Posted: 27 Mar 15 at 11:54am
Originally posted by Woodburner

I'd really like to have a bash at that winter series one day, but all the time they are being such knobs with their yardstick designations it really isn't going to happen and I absolutely refuse to select a bandit just to play along with older is better and retaining the status quo.

So I shall continue to bleat and berate until I see some semblance of fair play being steered towards rather than self interest of particular powerful class, industry or interest groups being served.


if you want to be critical, then be critical about the fact that it is even a series, with its own iteration of the PY system.  Not so long ago they were just independent events- highly respected some of them - all of whom were probably using the RYA list pro-tem.  

Now it's a new beast altogether, and as someone who wouldn't ever want to do all of them (Tiger Trophy never going to be the sort of event I'd want to do, Bloody Mary also being a 'do it once' bucket list only event), but lumping them altogether, the promotion of the series, drawing out 'class circuit results' from them and all that jazz.... well sorry, I fail to see the benefit and improvement.... if anything it does kind of put me off those individual events I would otherwise think about going to. (Oxford Blue, Stevie Nicks & GGP).  

Not that any of yours or my view really matters- they're all over subscribed anyway, so I'll just stick to home sailing over the winter and you can stick to that lake you're bothering.  If we're not going, then what possible feckin' difference does it make?


Edited by turnturtle - 27 Mar 15 at 11:58am
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Null View Drop Down
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Posts: 745 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 15 at 11:56am
Graeme, I am not sure what you mean.  The Sailjuice winter series is great.  Sure how they arrive at some of the handicaps is slightly questionable.  However I don't think its miles out of the way.  I certainly dont think there is any self interest.  If you look at the Lasers, a class they have moved more than many.  There was only 1 Laser in the top 25!!!  Hardly suggests they have turned the class into a pot hunting py bandit does it.  I understand the rationale behind new boat handicap allocation, i do wish they were more scientific than someone just picking a number out of thin air.  However it didn't stop me attending.
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JohnJack View Drop Down
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Posts: 246 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnJack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 15 at 11:59am
Sailors could be banded at National Level
This would however take a bit of administration, though not un-achievable.

Other sports organizing authorities do something similar, British Rowing for one.
Would just need a bit of organising.

You could then have a personal handicap as an added percentage of which ever boat you sail. It would also take into account all handicap (club and other). You could also add an adjustment for class racing aswell (ie class opens, nationals etc etc)

Not totally unachievable

You could add a sweetener of some sort, like for example rowing.
To be allowed to race you need to be a member of the governing body (British Rowing), being a member of British Rowing also covers you for personal liability while racing.

Admittedly there would have to be a change of attitudes etc etc
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 15 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by JohnJack

Admittedly there would have to be a change of attitudes etc etc

yes a very big one.... can't see that many clubs complying either, not when most are working hard to retain and recruit, not put up barriers and hoops to jump through.
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JohnJack View Drop Down
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Posts: 246 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnJack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 15 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by JohnJack

Admittedly there would have to be a change of attitudes etc etc

yes a very big one.... can't see that many clubs complying either, not when most are working hard to retain and recruit, not put up barriers and hoops to jump through.

Surely this would be a draw for clubs, being part of the scheme would mean you run proper personal handicaps, you could even run personal handicap opens! (dispite the fact a given sailor has never raced there before, which surely would entice more people to attend).
There would have to be more information pulled from the returns ie helm & crews UK Dinghy Association numbers (??) so you could match their results to all of there other results.
This should be relatively easy

The change in Attitude would need to come from the governing body
I cant see the RYA running hand in hand with a UKDA of any type (to which it could possibly loose members to & £££££££ unless it was a Dinghy version of the RYA)
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 15 at 12:20pm
change = churn  ... even if the long term projection of any plan would be increased participation, the risk averse response is probably the right one with the numbers falling as they are.  

Bottom line - keep on doing what we're doing and accepting that a) things improve year on year and b) there's always a set of compromises.  

I've long since given up on the lost generations type talk.... frankly it's going to be very few people in their 20s or 30s who want to invest the time and energy into any form of equipment heavy 'competitive pastime'.  These types of sports suit older folks, or kids funded by bank of Mum.   

On a more positive note- post recession, there are two new product launches from RS and Devoti which clearly 'get' a realistic consumer value judgement.  These will open up into well priced second hand markets in due course, and in the interim, the Laser still offers exceptional value for money for those without the cash or access to disposable finance.  

One thing the past decade has shown me is that when it comes to sailing, it doesn't need more complexity and complication - it needs to to Keep it Simple.  Which is exactly where the the PY system is in most clubs- we know what the handicap is by looking at a PDF....  don't like it?  Fine, go race a Laser somewhere.  




Edited by turnturtle - 27 Mar 15 at 12:21pm
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JohnJack View Drop Down
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Posts: 246 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnJack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 15 at 12:21pm
Imagine being able to turn up at the Tiger Trophy,GP,Blue or any large H'cap event and essentially being able to race everybody there, on personal handicap?

Surely that is the way forward

(you could also offer personal handicap as a 2nd scoring method for class Nationals as well, try to increase inclusion)
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 15 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by JohnJack

Imagine being able to turn up at the Tiger Trophy,GP,Blue or any large H'cap event and essentially being able to race everybody there, on personal handicap?

LOL I can see that being a total FAIL, but everyone's entitled to an opinion.
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Woodburner View Drop Down
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Posts: 332 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Woodburner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 15 at 12:24pm
I think if nothing else, the moment the UKDA, DRAGB or whatever it was called actually sprang to life and started administering it's own handicap racing system with all these extra features and benefits, you might see some change of attitude towards dinghy racing from the RYA, it is their core function after all even if at times it appears nobody there actually remembers how they came about.

For it to happen though you'd need a group of sailors from various clubs with web skills and the necessary drive to make it happen, but I'm sure there is that much dis satisfaction with the RYA at grass roots and changing room level, that anything new would be given a shot at title by many clubs and sailors.
Foil fun
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JohnJack View Drop Down
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Posts: 246 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnJack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 15 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by JohnJack

Imagine being able to turn up at the Tiger Trophy,GP,Blue or any large H'cap event and essentially being able to race everybody there, on personal handicap?

LOL I can see that being a total FAIL, but everyone's entitled to an opinion.

Why?
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