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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Boat Performance Index
    Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 3:40pm
This is what the class published back in September (with an update in Feb 2015):


Holds true for any new class really.
Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 3:20pm
The D Zero is going (in fact has already) to have no trouble getting past that first, finger in air minus a bit number. And why, sensible builders and classes will avoid the pressure of naming a number, having learned from (even recent) finger burning exercises. No need to go back to the classes Dougaldog is thinking of.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 3:19pm
I think initial consensus was 'best let the RYA issue an EN when they're good and ready'.  We made contact in the early stages to ensure we were 'on the radar', and I've also made my demo boat available when asked- but that was more to let a mate try it out for sh*ts and giggles- the added data into the system was a bonus.  

But beyond that, the process has proved swift and efficient and an EN available by the following Dinghy Exhibition- less than 6 months after production orders were hitting race courses.  

In the interim clubs and the Great Lakes group facilitated racing with a locally assessed number.

Not a bad effort all round imho.  

The system is working - but if you don't like it, or cannot accept the compromises, fine, no problem.... go find some fleet racing with like-minded individuals.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 3:11pm
This is why the class and builder specifically did not give a number. The class re-iterated the RYA has a mechanism in place for clubs to issue trial numbers which is what they did. The numbers varied from 1015 to 1045.

Now that the PYS is done online I believe the PY used has little relevance to the number that gets spat out in the end once the statiticians have done their bit (I could be wrong on that though).
Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 3:03pm
What used to happen was that a boat would get given a difficult trial number, and then because of the nature of things, clubs would simply return that number, so it would never change. It seems classes still get given difficult numbers when there is hardly any data, and that data possibly not as useful as it might be.
If the class never grows, then the danger is that it never gets past that "hump", you never get enough returns from a wide enough base and the number just hangs around. Is the number alone enough for it to become self fulfilling? I suspect you need a boat that was unlikely to go anywhere, too, and whinging on forums!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by Null

Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by Null

 
So we DID NOT Hassle any member of the PYAG or the RYA.  We tried to be proactive as a class in supporting its members should the worse happen.  Luckily we were able to avoid this and the encouragement to clubs in getting their returns in worked and our members were rewarded with a EN for 2015. 

Correct. The PYAG people asked for as much data as we could get them, ideally in a Sailwave format. We appealed to sailors and extra data came in and was combined with the stuff from the Sailjuice series.

I think it was great work done by the class and has given a good starting point for most club.

As will any EN (in fact any PY) it should be looked at and adjusted if it is felt to be wildly wrong.

I think you mean GL people Paul.  I don't believe we were asked for anything by the RYA or PYAG.  Even the GL people didnt ask us for data, they guessed at a number. Simon from sail Racer supported us in forwarding race data to the GL group in an effort to raise our number.  

and all of that data got chucked in to the melting pot for the PYAG. I had a deparate request via a mutual friend to send some data to someone who sits on both the GL and RYAG panels (I believe they do anyway).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 2:53pm
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by Null

 
So we DID NOT Hassle any member of the PYAG or the RYA.  We tried to be proactive as a class in supporting its members should the worse happen.  Luckily we were able to avoid this and the encouragement to clubs in getting their returns in worked and our members were rewarded with a EN for 2015. 

Correct. The PYAG people asked for as much data as we could get them, ideally in a Sailwave format. We appealed to sailors and extra data came in and was combined with the stuff from the Sailjuice series.

I think it was great work done by the class and has given a good starting point for most club.

As will any EN (in fact any PY) it should be looked at and adjusted if it is felt to be wildly wrong.

I think you mean GL people Paul.  I don't believe we were asked for anything by the RYA or PYAG.  Even the GL people didnt ask us for data, they guessed at a number. Simon from sail Racer supported us in forwarding race data to the GL group in an effort to raise our number.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 2:40pm
Originally posted by Dougaldog

Again - for the record - Since the 1960s there has been a long history of good boats getting stiffed by the imposition of a PY 'penalty'. Now in my posts there is NO reference to my suggesting that there is any agenda at work here - but at the same time, the numbers speak for themselves. It has happened before - has happened again and if nothing changes, will happen again in the future. I've been careful to avoid any finger pointing but, it does (as iGRF is wont to say) beg the questions of 'why' and 'how come'.
D

You're out of touch on this one Dougal- the PYAG only work with the data.  It has changed, 3 years ago iirc!!!!

There is no qualitative or colloquial input into setting the numbers.... those days are past.  The D-Zero EN was set based on limited data; hence it's an EN.  It will move- upwards, downwards?  Who knows.... the calibre of the sailors and the locations it gets returns will be the largest determining factor in that. 

The GL guys deliberately set the number harder for the 2015 SJ series and then welcomed our entries.  No one who showed up 'moaned' about 1015.... we all knew it would be temporary and respected the rationale as to why us (and the Aeros) were given a challenging handicap this year.  It made not a jot of difference to most of us who only did the odd event anyway, even those who it did affect adversely hardly bore a grudge about it.  They'll be back again next year, as will I to some of them.  (edit: not that this is any way relevant to the RYA or the PYAG)

Dragging over the past practices of the RYA with PY only further alienates regular sailors from the concept of PY racing- cementing old, out-dated opinion, rather than embracing the clarity of the current system and the opportunities it presents.  

PY will never be as 'pure' as class racing, but it's a hell of a lot better than it used to be- and whatever crap anyone throws at it, it's clean now- a data driven system only. 

Failing to accept that it has got better is a major disservice to those who volunteer their time, and frankly it makes those complaining, especially if they have a commercial agenda, to look rather sour and mean spirited.... they would better sticking to class racing, assuming anyone wants to actually buy whatever crap they are peddling.    
 


Edited by turnturtle - 20 Mar 15 at 2:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougaldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 2:12pm
Again - for the record - Since the 1960s there has been a long history of good boats getting stiffed by the imposition of a PY 'penalty'. Now in my posts there is NO reference to my suggesting that there is any agenda at work here - but at the same time, the numbers speak for themselves. It has happened before - has happened again and if nothing changes, will happen again in the future. I've been careful to avoid any finger pointing but, it does (as iGRF is wont to say) beg the questions of 'why' and 'how come'.
D
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 2:11pm
Originally posted by Null

 
So we DID NOT Hassle any member of the PYAG or the RYA.  We tried to be proactive as a class in supporting its members should the worse happen.  Luckily we were able to avoid this and the encouragement to clubs in getting their returns in worked and our members were rewarded with a EN for 2015. 

Correct. The PYAG people asked for as much data as we could get them, ideally in a Sailwave format. We appealed to sailors and extra data came in and was combined with the stuff from the Sailjuice series.

I think it was great work done by the class and has given a good starting point for most club.

As will any EN (in fact any PY) it should be looked at and adjusted if it is felt to be wildly wrong.
Paul
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