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gordon1277 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 11:29am
Sailing a Phantom on the sea against a Contender I would expect to hold him until he can trapeze at least 50% upwind.
At Weymouth on the run in force 4 no speed difference, but on a power reach all over me.
So the Halo should be quicker, after all when we last had a combined open at Burghfield all the Blazes where confident they should start first as the quicker boat and the Phantom is now 995! Cant remember them catching us though.
Gordon
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Dougaldog View Drop Down
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Posts: 356 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougaldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 11:34am
For the record.... 'That' sail in a Halo.

Okay, I'll come clean - it was not the first time I'd sailed the Halo rig. Back in late January (this is many years ago remember), I'd sailed it (again at Burghfield) on a day when they had to send a Rescue boat out to break a path through the ice so that I could reach clear water. That day the breeze peaked at 6-7 kts, no more - but the boat was still sailing well. In this conditions, in the Contender, you'd hardly be hooked on and you'd be passed by lots of boats - of which I am sure the Halo would be one.

Then, when it came to the DSM boat test, I had a play in the RS 100 - yes, very nice and all that, but then shifted over to the Halo as I knew I'd have fun. Now this was the time of the 'BIG rig' Halo - not sure how big it was but they seemed to be a lot of it looking upwards. Flat water and 8-10 kts it was, by my reckoning, still just in quick boat territory. By my reckoning, with lots of club sailing taking place in these conditions, on a pond with short and often awkward legs, the Halo would be a killer.
Anymore breeze and some waves and you'd have two options. Dive ashore and change to your Blaze rig and carry on OR - just reach up and down, hooning along and having a lot of fun. Here again I have to admit that I've not sailed the Halo in 20kts and some steepish waves. But if I wanted to sail in those conditions, I'd be in something else - simple.
Ergo, the answer to the question; In 8Kts, +/- 2, on a pond with flat water, is the Halo a quick customer? Answer = yes. Does the Halo rate a PY sub 1000 'as a starting point' - no, I do not believe it does. If you club conditions suit the Halo, then change the PY. But stiffing it from the outset sets a rather unfortunate precedent!
D
Dougal H
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 11:50am
Originally posted by Dougaldog

But stiffing it from the outset sets a rather unfortunate precedent!
D

has it been 'stiffed'... if we believe what we are told, and frankly once you give some real thought you might as well, (if you were on the PYAG why put yourself in the line of fire by turning your opinion into fact when you have a series of facts to rely on instead?!?)  Then whatever number hits that list is based on empirical results and returns alone.  No 'stiffing', 'mollycoddling' or 'gerrymandering' ... if the number feels wrong:

a) encourage local adjustment
b) get a more balanced set of returns in

The second is the crucial  bit.... if the number of returns are small, then the CSF will play a larger role in the data.  Take the D-One- 239 races returns, I bet a good proportion of those were Tim, someone I'd say was well above average standard.  Add in a few extra results from Nick Craig and the guys at Lymington (who are all fairly handy), then I reckon there's a good case for assuming that the D-One handicap is a bit tight....   compared to say something like the Supernova, muted down by a broader cross section of sailing skill (opinion assessed) and three iterations of hull design under the same 'class'.


Edited by turnturtle - 20 Mar 15 at 11:51am
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 11:54am
Originally posted by Dougaldog

 
Ergo, the answer to the question; In 8Kts, +/- 2, on a pond with flat water, is the Halo a quick customer? Answer = yes. Does the Halo rate a PY sub 1000 'as a starting point' - no, I do not believe it does. If you club conditions suit the Halo, then change the PY. But stiffing it from the outset sets a rather unfortunate precedent!
D

That is what seems to be done though. Have an unduly harsh PY to ensure it doesnt walk away with everything.

We are all aware of the furore over the D-Zero/Aero PYs. Sailjuice have now done some data analysis and moved them about, some 15 points slower. Not a huge shift but definitely coming more in line with the EN issued. We shall see what happens now there is more and more data going in to the system.
Paul
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Null View Drop Down
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Posts: 745 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by Dougaldog

But stiffing it from the outset sets a rather unfortunate precedent!
D

has it been 'stiffed'... if we believe what we are told, and frankly once you give some real thought you might as well, (if you were on the PYAG why put yourself in the line of fire by turning your opinion into fact when you have a series of facts to rely on instead?!?)  Then whatever number hits that list is based on empirical results and returns alone.  No 'stiffing', 'mollycoddling' or 'gerrymandering' ... if the number feels wrong:

a) encourage local adjustment
b) get a more balanced set of returns in

The second is the crucial  bit.... if the number of returns are small, then the CSF will play a larger role in the data.  Take the D-One- 239 races returns, I bet a good proportion of those were Tim, someone I'd say was well above average standard.  Add in a few extra results from Nick Craig and the guys at Lymington (who are all fairly handy), then I reckon there's a good case for assuming that the D-One handicap is a bit tight....   compared to say something like the Supernova, muted down by a broader cross section of sailing skill (opinion assessed) and three iterations of hull design under the same 'class'.

Exactly.  Are their suggestions that the RYA, PYAG or whoever have some kind of Agenda?  If so why?  As far as I see it they just gather the data they are given and allocate a number.  Now as i understand it the Halo was deigned for big blokes to have fun in light winds.  As such its probably only sailed in light winds and as such the results are polarised to those conditions.  Its a quick boat in the light stuff, i would guess not far off the PY its been given.

For the record I noticed earlier in the thread a slight poke around classes gathering return data and harassing the RYA.  If this (as i suspect) was in reference to the Zero, i can categorically promise you that was not the case!  We as a class were not expecting to get an EN this year and as such developed an action plan to support our members.  This involved two simple steps:
1) We made a concious effort to encourage all our members to put pressure on their clubs to ensure returns where made.
2) We asked for members to return their data to us so we as a class could calculate a class number off real data.  That way in the event of not being offered an EN we could really support clubs and our members with a (relatively) accurate class number.  Which by the way was not far off what we were given by the RYA and the later GL number (or so i am told)!!!

So we DID NOT Hassle any member of the PYAG or the RYA.  We tried to be proactive as a class in supporting its members should the worse happen.  Luckily we were able to avoid this and the encouragement to clubs in getting their returns in worked and our members were rewarded with a EN for 2015. 
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 2:11pm
Originally posted by Null

 
So we DID NOT Hassle any member of the PYAG or the RYA.  We tried to be proactive as a class in supporting its members should the worse happen.  Luckily we were able to avoid this and the encouragement to clubs in getting their returns in worked and our members were rewarded with a EN for 2015. 

Correct. The PYAG people asked for as much data as we could get them, ideally in a Sailwave format. We appealed to sailors and extra data came in and was combined with the stuff from the Sailjuice series.

I think it was great work done by the class and has given a good starting point for most club.

As will any EN (in fact any PY) it should be looked at and adjusted if it is felt to be wildly wrong.
Paul
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Dougaldog View Drop Down
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Posts: 356 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougaldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 2:12pm
Again - for the record - Since the 1960s there has been a long history of good boats getting stiffed by the imposition of a PY 'penalty'. Now in my posts there is NO reference to my suggesting that there is any agenda at work here - but at the same time, the numbers speak for themselves. It has happened before - has happened again and if nothing changes, will happen again in the future. I've been careful to avoid any finger pointing but, it does (as iGRF is wont to say) beg the questions of 'why' and 'how come'.
D
Dougal H
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 2:40pm
Originally posted by Dougaldog

Again - for the record - Since the 1960s there has been a long history of good boats getting stiffed by the imposition of a PY 'penalty'. Now in my posts there is NO reference to my suggesting that there is any agenda at work here - but at the same time, the numbers speak for themselves. It has happened before - has happened again and if nothing changes, will happen again in the future. I've been careful to avoid any finger pointing but, it does (as iGRF is wont to say) beg the questions of 'why' and 'how come'.
D

You're out of touch on this one Dougal- the PYAG only work with the data.  It has changed, 3 years ago iirc!!!!

There is no qualitative or colloquial input into setting the numbers.... those days are past.  The D-Zero EN was set based on limited data; hence it's an EN.  It will move- upwards, downwards?  Who knows.... the calibre of the sailors and the locations it gets returns will be the largest determining factor in that. 

The GL guys deliberately set the number harder for the 2015 SJ series and then welcomed our entries.  No one who showed up 'moaned' about 1015.... we all knew it would be temporary and respected the rationale as to why us (and the Aeros) were given a challenging handicap this year.  It made not a jot of difference to most of us who only did the odd event anyway, even those who it did affect adversely hardly bore a grudge about it.  They'll be back again next year, as will I to some of them.  (edit: not that this is any way relevant to the RYA or the PYAG)

Dragging over the past practices of the RYA with PY only further alienates regular sailors from the concept of PY racing- cementing old, out-dated opinion, rather than embracing the clarity of the current system and the opportunities it presents.  

PY will never be as 'pure' as class racing, but it's a hell of a lot better than it used to be- and whatever crap anyone throws at it, it's clean now- a data driven system only. 

Failing to accept that it has got better is a major disservice to those who volunteer their time, and frankly it makes those complaining, especially if they have a commercial agenda, to look rather sour and mean spirited.... they would better sticking to class racing, assuming anyone wants to actually buy whatever crap they are peddling.    
 


Edited by turnturtle - 20 Mar 15 at 2:54pm
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Null View Drop Down
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Posts: 745 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 2:53pm
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by Null

 
So we DID NOT Hassle any member of the PYAG or the RYA.  We tried to be proactive as a class in supporting its members should the worse happen.  Luckily we were able to avoid this and the encouragement to clubs in getting their returns in worked and our members were rewarded with a EN for 2015. 

Correct. The PYAG people asked for as much data as we could get them, ideally in a Sailwave format. We appealed to sailors and extra data came in and was combined with the stuff from the Sailjuice series.

I think it was great work done by the class and has given a good starting point for most club.

As will any EN (in fact any PY) it should be looked at and adjusted if it is felt to be wildly wrong.

I think you mean GL people Paul.  I don't believe we were asked for anything by the RYA or PYAG.  Even the GL people didnt ask us for data, they guessed at a number. Simon from sail Racer supported us in forwarding race data to the GL group in an effort to raise our number.  
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by Null

Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by Null

 
So we DID NOT Hassle any member of the PYAG or the RYA.  We tried to be proactive as a class in supporting its members should the worse happen.  Luckily we were able to avoid this and the encouragement to clubs in getting their returns in worked and our members were rewarded with a EN for 2015. 

Correct. The PYAG people asked for as much data as we could get them, ideally in a Sailwave format. We appealed to sailors and extra data came in and was combined with the stuff from the Sailjuice series.

I think it was great work done by the class and has given a good starting point for most club.

As will any EN (in fact any PY) it should be looked at and adjusted if it is felt to be wildly wrong.

I think you mean GL people Paul.  I don't believe we were asked for anything by the RYA or PYAG.  Even the GL people didnt ask us for data, they guessed at a number. Simon from sail Racer supported us in forwarding race data to the GL group in an effort to raise our number.  

and all of that data got chucked in to the melting pot for the PYAG. I had a deparate request via a mutual friend to send some data to someone who sits on both the GL and RYAG panels (I believe they do anyway).
Paul
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