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    Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 12:44pm
I think the SJ events require a published number, or did a couple of years back?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 12:28pm
Originally posted by Peaky

you won't have a published PY which would preclude you from many events

I hope not. It defeats one of the objects of the PYS scheme if people ban boats which don't have a published number. The statement that doing so is against the purpose of the scheme seems to have dropped off the guidance docs at some stage, but they do make it clear that the published numbers are an aid for a club to compile its own list, not a straightjacket.

I just did a quick google for
"published handicap" "sailing instructions" site:uk
and although I didn't get much back I got a few sets of club SIs which explained what they would do if a boat didn't have a published number, but none that said entry would be disallowed.

Edited by JimC - 20 Mar 15 at 12:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 12:12pm
It seems self evident to me that if a race is run under RRS (which is 99.999% of all the racing that we on here do) then the RRS apply, whether that be a single class fleet race or a multi-clas race.

For many classes you don't have to be a member of the CA to be class legal, it's just that you do if want to race in a CA arranged event. Seems fair enough to me.

If you make your own class up to 'allow' one hull with different class rigs to compete then a. you won't have a published PY which would preclude you from many events and b. you would have no rules (unless you go to the effort of creating some, without infringing the IPR of the classes you are ripping off) so literally anything would be eligible in your class.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 12:04pm
Like I said, an interesting assertion, but do you have any evidence or sources to back it up?
RRS 87, and even more RRS78 seem to be quite difficult rules for those of us who like playing with boats, but if you're going to blithely say they don't apply when the clear text of the rules says they do you do need a bit more than a bare assertion or an "of course that's what it must mean".

Edited by JimC - 20 Mar 15 at 12:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 11:28am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by RS400atC

The RRS-not changing class rules only applies in class races.

An interesting assertion, but where in the RRS (or anywhere else) does it say that?


It should state who is eleigible in NoR.
The classes to race.
So if it says 470 class, 470 class rules apply and cannot be changed.
If it says IRC, with a rating band, IRC rules apply.
So you can stiick your assy or masthead kite on your erstwhile One design and race under a different yardstick.
If it says PY, it usually says something like any boat with a published number or words to that effect.
Which effectively means you have to keep to the boat class rules in order to race under that number.
But tens of thousands don't join the CA...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 11:26am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by RS400atC

The RRS-not changing class rules only applies in class races.

An interesting assertion, but where in the RRS (or anywhere else) does it say that?

Agreed, it applies to any race that is run under the RRS as a boat must be class rule compliant.

As for the self adjusting comment it may mean the 10.2 is undult handicapped as fast if people swap down when it is windy (or sail as an RS100 8.4). This is the issue the Rooster 8.1 faces but as the PY is based on published results this will happen.
Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 11:19am
Originally posted by RS400atC

The RRS-not changing class rules only applies in class races.

An interesting assertion, but where in the RRS (or anywhere else) does it say that?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 11:13am
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by turnturtle

I guess that unless the club SI expressly says otherwise, then this would/should apply?

Not even then:
RRS 87 CHANGES TO CLASS RULES
The sailing instructions may change a class rule only when the class
rules permit the change, or when written permission of the class
association for the change is displayed on the official notice board.


Mind you the practical effect may be less than you'd think, since in most cases I think what is effectively going on that the club is scoring by helm and combining entries when the helm is sailing multiple boats, so it makes little difference whether the helm is swapping between RS100 small rig and RS100 big rig, or RS100 small rig and RS400.

But then the club could always create a local class, call it RS100whocarewhatsailyouuse and say it had all the class rules as the RS100 class except you may swap between the 10.2 and 8.4 sail freely.

The same could be done for the Aero (and the Zero and the Laser).

The flip side is that they would need to decide on a suitable PY....(but that is another matter)


I thought the local self adjustment of PY was supposed to work?
If so why won't it cope with this?

The RRS-not changing class rules only applies in class races.
In yardstick racing whether it's PY, IRC or IMS, you can race your production boat in any configuration you care to, provided the handicapping authority is prepared to issue a handicap.

I'd guess the majority of boats racing PY are no-class anyway, as the sailors aren't in the CA.....
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 15 at 10:45am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by turnturtle

I guess that unless the club SI expressly says otherwise, then this would/should apply?

Not even then:
RRS 87 CHANGES TO CLASS RULES
The sailing instructions may change a class rule only when the class
rules permit the change, or when written permission of the class
association for the change is displayed on the official notice board.


Mind you the practical effect may be less than you'd think, since in most cases I think what is effectively going on that the club is scoring by helm and combining entries when the helm is sailing multiple boats, so it makes little difference whether the helm is swapping between RS100 small rig and RS100 big rig, or RS100 small rig and RS400.

But then the club could always create a local class, call it RS100whocarewhatsailyouuse and say it had all the class rules as the RS100 class except you may swap between the 10.2 and 8.4 sail freely.

The same could be done for the Aero (and the Zero and the Laser).

The flip side is that they would need to decide on a suitable PY....(but that is another matter)
Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 15 at 10:18am
thanks for the clarity... and point taken.
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