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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Boat Performance Index
    Posted: 19 Mar 15 at 11:57pm
Dan .. Very happy to send you or anyone else a copy of the spreadsheet you originally sent me !!   ... So what exactly has been changed in your later versions ?   I'd really like to know what changes to relative weightings are involved out of interest.

Jeremy C -  I  struggle to comprehend your apparently held view that a few of us are somehow out to cheat you out of the odd series coffee mug or whatever !  You have chosen to make personal accusations in public - pity.   You should have checked the facts with me first possibly.  Whenever development and non-standard boat or rig configurations are being tried I NEVER complete a race or if I do RTD as a matter of reasoned principle.  Development of rigs is something I do know a little about by now and racing against known quantities is critical to the process required imo.  I obviously cannot do this at 'away' or major events so do this work as/when needed at Burghfield.    It is part of what I do for a living to an increasing extent now.  Blimey we get 'shot at' whatever we do.... you'd very quickly accuse us/me of taking 'unfair advantage' if I/we use non-standard development sails 'against you', quietly signed on and off, collected the series points etc etc and now when we very clearly do not you are throwing personal accusations around ... again !  BSC know I do rig and boat testing occasionally on the lake, I am very open about the fact and make sure series results are not affected.   You really should already know all this already.  However I'm always up for a bit of a challenge (and a bit of fun !) - I'll bring along a brand spanking new PRODUCTION Halo sail this Sunday to Burghfield, put in on a totally bog-standard hull for the first time and give you something to aim for (or should that be 'at' ?).  Might even buy you a beer if you want to join us old Blaze gits (and the not so old ones) in the bar afterwards !

Mike L.


Edited by blaze720 - 19 Mar 15 at 11:59pm
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 8:31am
Mike, you can't win this one.

Looking at it all from the outside, you are treading a fine line. If the Halo isn't quick, people might go buy something else. But if the yardstick gets known as being unrealistic, then people won't buy into the concept because they feel they won't be in.

What you need to watch out for is that when you prolong threads about the cruelty of the handicap, you give it more life. The really good thing about the modern py system is that it does adjust pretty quickly once the figures start coming in. So, get people sailing the boat, writing about the boat on here, not about the yardstick. The sails you have developed for the Blaze hull look amazing and ought to blow all the other single handers away. What the spreadsheet says at the end will be meaningless compared to the grins people come ashore with.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 9:09am
PY/Performance is always subjective. Different boats perform differently on different stretches or water and in different conditions.

When I had my Blaze at Hunts and the breeze was on I was quids in. It flew and was a lot of fun. When the wind was lighter I just couldn't get away from the fast tacking and quick accelerating boats.

This was also at the time when the Blaze and Phantom had the same PY, look at them now, Phant sun 1000, Blaze 1020-something. SO a differential of over a minute in an hour. Is that indicative of their relative performance?...

I am constantly being told that 1040 is 'completely wrong' for the D-Zero and it should be around 1000 so faster than a Blaze, very close to a Phantom and not far from an RS300. Anyone here think that is fair? Sure I think 1040 is a little generous and in the right conditions the boat flies and, as it accelerates quickly and doesn't lose speed through tacks and gybes then, on a small, shift puddle like Hunts it does go well.

To be fair, I don't particularly care about the PY of it. The boat is such a joy to sail, it has re-ignited my passion for sailing which was beginning to wane.

I will also confess that there was 1 race where I was leading by around 10 minutes on the water where I retired after finishing. I was over the line and despite the X flag not being shown I felt I should do the honourable thing.
Paul
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Woodburner View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Woodburner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 10:08am
Craiggo, the RS500 came with two rigs, a standard and an XL which was the one I and most folk had, in Sweden they twin trap it. The main has a big standout roach, it's such that weather helm is a constant presence, get someone half decent in one and they'll blow an Alto away, we used to sail it off 963 and post wins when the course suited kite on both legs, otherwise the 470 would win, which is also 973, which is the territory 'they' are claiming for the Halo.
OK lets ignore three sail boats and talk Contender v Halo then shall we?
Absurd doesn't adequately describe it.
This system is so f**ked I just don't get anyone saying it's better now, it's ridiculously wrong.


Edited by Woodburner - 20 Mar 15 at 10:08am
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 10:13am
Have you sailed a Halo?

I can believe it is Contender quick until the breeze really is on especially with a lighter than optimal crew on board. remember with those wide rack you are pretty much at a trapezing distance from the centreline of the boat especially if you have loose toe straps.
Paul
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 10:16am
Originally posted by Woodburner

 OK lets ignore three sail boats and talk Contender v Halo then shall we?
Absurd doesn't adequately describe it.
This system is so f**ked I just don't get anyone saying it's better now, it's ridiculously wrong.

yep - do that, read Dougal's posts on the matter (as a long standing contender sailor when he tested the HALO)  Go to Oxford and watch kids in Aero 5 drift faster than a Contender.  Then watch a Contender on the Ijesselmeer in a solid F5... or in the waves at Lyme with a full-on SWly.  If Contenders made good lake boats for light winds I'd have bought one years ago and saved myself an awful lot of hassle.

The Contender is medium-high wind boat, much like the 420.  The HALO is designed for what, 5-15 knots (at a guess).  Anything more than 15 knots and your 'average big lad' would probably be looking to get the most out of the standard Blaze anyway.  
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 10:20am
Originally posted by Woodburner

So let's apply some logic here, it is a single hander without a kite, now being claimed to be as fast as a modern 3 sail boat which is equally overpowered, the RS500.

Now, no doubt in some closeted little world down amongst the puddle shires, it'll match that or even best the occasional badly sailed merlin, but here in middle earth by sea, even a retard and a half competent crew will hoist their kite and carve it a new transom.

And I'd love to see the look on the face of even the most competent Haloist as that hull punches into the back of a wave, stops dead and all the power stays locked in...

Huh?  For decades we've seen that singlehanders can easily be as fast as a 3-sail doublehander of the similar vintage, general style and length.  Look at the B14 compared to the longer MPS;  the 600 v the L4000; or the Fireball and 470 v the Contender. There's lots of precedents to show that singlehanders can keep up with comparable 3-sail boats.

We all know that extra weight slows a boat and the typical doublehander carries something like 70-80kg+ of extra sailor, plus a significant amount of extra weight in the jib and kite fittings, and the bulkier hull required to support all the extra weight.  It's not surprising that roughly similar singlehanders can often keep up or go faster.




Edited by Mark Jardine - 21 Mar 15 at 7:17am
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Woodburner View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Woodburner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 10:27am
I've owned a Blaze and at my weight the sail area aint a lot of different to the big sail and heavier person that's how it works.
It perfectly indicates even all your sad puddle based arguments, that the system is lake weighted in fact I wouldn't even go as far as to say lake weighted it is lake only, no consideration or average applied to consider coastal clubs.

Mark: Posts edited for obvious reason.


Edited by Mark Jardine - 21 Mar 15 at 7:17am
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 10:33am
The system is reflective of the clubs who bother to put returns in.....  
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 15 at 11:02am
Originally posted by turnturtle

The system is reflective of the clubs who bother to put returns in.....  

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Paul
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