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Post Options Post Options   Quote Woodburner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Boat Performance Index
    Posted: 17 Mar 15 at 9:50am
Yes, a guide to the boat rather than beginners in huge volume defining a boats performance index.

The case to point being the butt of my boring jests, the Miracle which in point of fact has actually improved in performance thanks to relaxation on jib angles if the beach telegraph is to be believed yet the current description of its performance defines it as having become 10 points slower which everyone knows is not true, but because the majority of its handlers are entry level that becomes the defining measure by which it is quantified.

I'm not after a finite scale but something you can point to, if for example you want to group boats of similar performance together, to compete. The way things are at the moment boats moving in and out of fast and slow handicap for no other reason than who happens to be sailing them and where, it simply is not logical.

We all know pretty much what compares to what, OK there will be + and - points according to water, conditions etc, but that D1, RS400 comparison. Me and my solution and the laser, they're pretty much the same speed, as are there bands of boats that should be judged similar, on the sea for example the Phantom and the Blaze should be in the same group, in one condition the Phantom will have it and in another it'll be the Blaze, I'd say that's probably the same on certain bigger inland waters, I wouldn't want to put money on say Maxibuddah even beating Mike Lyons on QM in a force 4 -5, yet if it were 2-3 then the betting might sway the other way, hence they should both be in the same banding.

That's what I'm getting at, a more general performance index across the board.



Edited by Woodburner - 17 Mar 15 at 10:24am
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Woodburner View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Woodburner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 15 at 9:58am
It should be considered more like a Beaufort Scale than the actual speed in knots to use a windspeed analogy.

What we can do on the sea in a force five compared for example what can be done inland in a force five kind of defines what I'm driving at.

A 'beaufort' Scale for racing dinghies
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 15 at 10:02am
Is there the will for it though?  I asked a genuine question to 'group together' RS700s, MPSs and Low Rider Moths once... a sort of 'single handers high performance fleet'.  I thought it could prove something aspirational for bored laser sailors, provide some framework for more meaningful racing and 'social training' without consigning the participants to the PY system.

The only support it got was from a couple of fireball sailors who thought the principle was sound enough.  The 700 & MPS sailors didn't want to know....  fair enough, I dropped it is as dead duck idea.  The following spring they were racing off the same handicap number anyway..... (although I acknowledge that the Musto Skiff has suddenly got faster in the last year or two with all that development and enhancements they've been doing....)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 15 at 10:04am
Originally posted by Woodburner

It should be considered more like a Beaufort Scale than the actual speed in knots to use a windspeed analogy.

What we can do on the sea in a force five compared for example what can be done inland in a force five kind of defines what I'm driving at.

A 'beaufort' Scale for racing dinghies

Yep, I like it.... sadly I will be very much in the minority, therefore the idea won't gain traction.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 15 at 10:06am
I don't know that I've ever come across a club where, given sufficient numbers on the start line, they *don't* divide their handicap fleet into groupings of more similar type/performance.

The only time I've ever seen it done differently is for one series at my own club where we've divided the fleet for one series into more and less experienced sailors with a view to trying to make the experience less intimidating for the less experienced.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 15 at 10:09am
Originally posted by JimC

I don't know that I've ever come across a club where, given sufficient numbers on the start line, they *don't* divide their handicap fleet into groupings of more similar type/performance.


hmm, I think you've uncovered one of the key issues.... too many clubs perhaps?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 15 at 11:17am
i think this idea has some merit, certainly as an exercise in showing that a handicap system based on opinion rather than returns may in certain circumstances be correct but ultimately prove what we already know and have discussed may times, that no system is perfect but a subjective system is far worse than an objective one when it comes to dinghy park tranquility (well thats the dream anyway)

you have to start of with water type split so as to avoid too many arguments of, "well thats not what ive seen" persisting.  So you could have non tidal, tidal, and sea BPI's

it would be interesting to see how much the py system would be squashed and stretched by this "opinion" based BPI if you use the rs400 as the mid point.

i say lets get some lists going and a clever excel wiz could do the final analysis comparing the two.


Edited by Oli - 17 Mar 15 at 11:17am
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Woodburner View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Woodburner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 15 at 11:23am
Peaky to the forum!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 15 at 12:32pm
For me, the yardstick system separating the sea and inland results when it is able will address many of the issues that we have.

Bringing back 2 or 3 figure numbers would also help - it would mean that boats currently just a few points apart are likely to suddenly be on the same handicap - so the Graduate would join the Streaker and Solo on 114, the Firefly would join the Lightning and British Moth on 116.

No reason a club couldn't do this if they wanted to, anyway.

The only place I can see for saying "well its about the speed of a 400" is for boats which don't have returns, and I'm pretty sure this is what happens 99 times out of 100 anyway.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 15 at 12:36pm
There's a bit of a dichotomy though isn't there?  Whilst most of us would happily be able to put most craft into category A, B, C, D & E based on what we see, there are always going to fringe and cross overs which would down to local clubs to ascertain where they sit- a source for potential disharmony?  

So you need the PY numbers to create the bandings, as an 'impartial assessment'.  But as the new system is designed to effectively eradicate PY (and the need to time and return data), then it's a going to erode itself.

Complex problem when you dig deep enough....
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