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Woodburner View Drop Down
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Joined: 13 Mar 15
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Posts: 332 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Woodburner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Boat Performance Index
    Posted: 17 Mar 15 at 9:16am
Just following up from something SimonW99 said about the Weta, in another post where he described it 'about RS400, D1 around the track' a simple throwaway remark which contained really what everyone wants to know about boats. (well maybe not everyone but certainly anyone with a logical mind)

With the handicap system shall we say at best in a state of extreme flux or total chaotic breakdown if you're one of its harshest critics. I'm wondering if there is enough of a knowledge base contained here, to create a BPI based on known standards?

If it was a scale of say 100

and the RS400, D1 were at a mid point of say 50 if it is actually true they are similar of course.

Could such a scale be constructed?

The question is as stated before we start, not wether or not it should be done, it's could it be done?

Then we can start bickering as to wether or not it could or should be used instead of the mess we currently have.


Edited by Woodburner - 17 Mar 15 at 9:17am
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 15 at 9:22am
So, a system based on opinion and myth rather than actual facts? A real move forwards in the world of handicapping.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 15 at 9:27am
Team Garibaldi are going to have field day on this.... oh, I forgot, they don't like it here anymore, too repetitive....

Firstly I think you need to accept that some boats sailing on different waters might have significantly different profiles - especially if you allow for crew skill factor.   There's no accounting for the fact that the one isolated musto skiff at one club is being sailed by an ex-14 hotshot, whereas just down the road it's a muppet like you or I who would in all liklihood be quicker around a course in a Phantom, Aero, Rooster 8.1 etc.  Expecting either system to rationalise this, is imho, a foolish goal.

So loosely speaking- what's the objective for your BPI?  Is it to replace one spreadsheet dataset where no one knows who won until Monday morning with another?  Or is it cluster boats into groups which then provides a loose framework for first across the line racing?  The example you cite- Weta, D1 and 400 all sail together, the winner is the guy who crosses the finish line first.  

If it's the former- no thanks.   I can't see the point... actually more than that, I don't think it would be as effective as the system we currently have which seems to service sailing quite well.  

If it's the latter, then I'm all ears.... but don't expect a crowded room to join us.


Edited by turnturtle - 17 Mar 15 at 9:41am
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Null View Drop Down
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Posts: 745 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 15 at 9:31am
Graeme, Nice idea.  I have often liked James Idea of scratch racing in a 'Formula' style class.  Say F1-100 
RS400's and D1's are pretty evenly matched so why not race together?  Perhaps allowing a 10 point window between classes to allow for grouping.  

If i am honest this is how i see open events developing, classes and clubs opening up Formula 5 opens as an example which may mean classes from 1030 - 1040  compete.  Which would mean GP's, Solos, Streakers, Graduates, Radials.  All off the same scratch number...
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PeterG View Drop Down
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Posts: 822 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 15 at 9:33am
If it was a scale of say 100

and the RS400, D1 were at a mid point of say 50 if it is actually true they are similar of course.

Could such a scale be constructed?

So replace the existing yardstick, based on years of hard work and data collection, with something based on the views and prejudices of the group of people who post here? Sounds a stroke of genius  Confused
Peter
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 15 at 9:41am
I would say......

100 - Grumpscow and Alto.

98 - Solution and EPS
80 - Foiling Moth
70- 49er
65 - RS 800
62- FD
60 - 505,
50 - RS400, D1
10 - Miracle 20 (copy of Hurricane 5.9 cat)
7 - International Canoe
5- Tasar
4- Laser
3- Radial
1- Opti

and since I'm completely unbiased, I assume that everyone will agree 100% and Grumpf will fall in line and find the PY free nirvana he is searching for.




Edited by Chris 249 - 17 Mar 15 at 9:44am
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rb_stretch View Drop Down
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Posts: 742 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 15 at 9:43am
The more I understand my club waters the more I appreciate how location and course type does affect performance quite considerably, something that PY does not capture. The introduction of the Aero just reinforced this because despite that the fact we have it sailing off 1015, a number of us at the club have stepped in it for the first time and won handicap races against similarly competent sailors. That says the Aero should probably have an even lower handicap than 1015. However in Open waters the evidence I hear from others is that something lower than 1015 is just not realistic against boats that are more powerful (eg. rack boats such as the Blaze). I hear similar from sea sailing Phantom sailors.

This is the circumstantial evidence, but of course we are never going to get enough data on our type of water to have the empirical data based evidence. Whilst I think the PY is as good as it is going to get, I also think there is an opportunity to bring in more qualitative evidence to reflect what often is common knowledge. I'm all ears on a practical way to do this, because as I suspect with many other clubs, we seem to be only able to make decisions based on data....
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 15 at 9:45am
I used to think the bandings were a good idea, and maybe they could work in a wider banded pursuit race, where boats are grouped per minute? If you get lots of complaints, then the idea doesn't work

Effectively, though, it happens on the water anyway, with much broader Bandings. I'm happy racing Lasers in the Lightning, with the actual handicap result meaning little. Race the boats you are with, keep an eye on the boats you are competing against on handicap, try and sail a clean race and quit worrying about how you've been "shafted" by the PYAG!
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 15 at 9:46am
Originally posted by rb_stretch

I'm all ears on a practical way to do this, because as I suspect with many other clubs, we seem to be only able to make decisions based on data....

yep- because as a club there's an assumed social side to it which brings in small p, politics into the equation.  AIUI, this isn't such an issue in a sport which works very positively with personal handicaps ingrained in its culture- like  squash league or golf.  

I really don't envy the guys who make the decisions to locally adjust another member's handicap.... they must have far broader shoulders than I would, most sailors I know would not want personal handicaps, which is essentially what local adjustment is perceived as. 


Edited by turnturtle - 17 Mar 15 at 9:48am
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 15 at 9:50am
Originally posted by Rupert

I used to think the bandings were a good idea, and maybe they could work in a wider banded pursuit race, where boats are grouped per minute? If you get lots of complaints, then the idea doesn't work

Effectively, though, it happens on the water anyway, with much broader Bandings. I'm happy racing Lasers in the Lightning, with the actual handicap result meaning little. Race the boats you are with, keep an eye on the boats you are competing against on handicap, try and sail a clean race and quit worrying about how you've been "shafted" by the PYAG!

Clap true enough.  And that will be my attitude going into this season's evening series in a 'medium handicap fleet'.... it's a broad enough band to cover a whole host of my sailing ineptitude.   LOL
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