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jeffers View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11 Mar 15 at 7:04am
Originally posted by JimC

Personally I like being in a club that has a place for Joe Budgetsailor, and a sport that only has time for Mr Rich is of little interest for me. That's what Yacht clubs are for.

And I have no objection to people sailing expensive boats and classes either. But some of you are coming across as if it would be a good thing to turn the cheapest classes to participate in into much more expensive ones. [extreme language omitted]. Just remember there are a lot more poor people than rich ones, especially at the moment, so if we want growth in the sport who should we target?

From a club that has far more budget concious sailors and a few 'richer' sailors I agree with the above.
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Spot on, Jim c.
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 15 at 12:55am
Personally I like being in a club that has a place for Joe Budgetsailor, and a sport that only has time for Mr Rich is of little interest for me. That's what Yacht clubs are for.

And I have no objection to people sailing expensive boats and classes either. But some of you are coming across as if it would be a good thing to turn the cheapest classes to participate in into much more expensive ones. [extreme language omitted]. Just remember there are a lot more poor people than rich ones, especially at the moment, so if we want growth in the sport who should we target?
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 15 at 12:32am
/\
 
Yep, I think that was probably part of the issue. Still, even in a class like Lasers an extra sail and bottom section is several times what the average person spends on sport and recreation per year, and adding that to the cost of playing the game must have its downsides whe the sport is already considered to be costly and inaccessible.
 
Maybe to economise, the classes that do a lot of rig switching could have a special high-wind sail, designed and built just for the rough stuff?  That could be more durable and handle better than a small sail designed for all-round use....then again, once you do that it's hard to argue why you couldn't also have a special sail just for light winds.
 
I'm contemplating returning to a multi-rig class I love, but there's concern about the mounting costs of having to buy three sails and at least two sets of spars, and interestingly a friend who has just returned to the class is noticing what a hassle the extra gear is.
 
Just to reiterate, I'm not saying multiple rigs should be banned; ironically, because of the setup where I sail, I have to have two sizes of Laser rig although I only use one at club level, and this afternoon I'v got to arrange to get some sails for a small-rig experiment in another class.  It's more a discussion about whether the downsides and pitfalls can simply be ignored or wished away, and whether those who are against multiple rigs have a reasonable point of view.
 
 


Edited by Chris 249 - 11 Mar 15 at 12:37am
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Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 15 at 12:20am
Originally posted by Chris 249

It's a pretty ancient "innovation".  Big smile The very first popular racing centreboarder, the Canoes of the 19th century, ended up with multiple rigs, and according to contemporary sources the expense and hassle of such rigs was one of the things that killed the sailing canoe as a popular type.  Skiffs, of course, have used multiple rigs since the 1800s, as have Raceboard and Slalom windsurfers which were once probably the most popular racing classes ever seen in the sport of sailing..... and like the other multiple rig classes they are now much less popular partly because of the hassle and expense involved.
Would I be right in guessing that in the cases you quote, the rigs were development rigs and not one-design?  Thus you could need to upgrade your canoe or board rig every year to keep up with developments.  That would be a good reason for limited/diminishing numbers, whereas with the Laser and Aero the rigs are one-design.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 10:48pm
Wouldn't it be reasonable to give those who use multiple rigs a separate handicap to those who just use any one of the individual rigs?  The "multi rig" handicap would be faster than the handicap for the biggest rig, because it would account for the fact that small rigs are faster in a big breeze.
 
For example, a skilled 75kg Laser sailor may be (at a wild guess) 90 seconds faster on the water if they swap from full rig to Radial in winds over 20 knots.  If (at another wild guess) you get sustained 20 knots every fifth race in a fairly windy location where you normally do 60 minute races, the "multi rig" Laser yardstick should drop to 1080. So Richie Rich gets to swap to a Radial when he wants, and Joe Poor gets an 18 second advantage in the majority of races when they are both using big rigs.
 
Of course, one can understand the point of view of those who say "don't worry about being fair, make it fun" - as long as everyone gets similar concessions. For example, boats that aren't fun to tack should get right of way. Boats that don't have spinnakers or traps should be allowed to use them without handicap adjustment.  People who don't think it's fun to beat all the way to the windward mark should be allowed to cut the race short.....Oh, brave new world, that has such rules in it. Tongue
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 10:48pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by turnturtle


Joe needs to grow up then.... And join the real world.

 
If that's the real world you live in then it's lucky some of us have found a different one.

I'm with TurnTurtle.  I'd also say that Average Joe's Envy of Richy Rich kids multiple rigs is likely to be rooted in Richy Rich kids, well, richness, as much as how that manifests itself.

Whereas he needs to join a real world in which he recognises value not price....

Now if we were to buy an Aero it would be with all 3 rigs:

Why - the clues in the 'we'.  A 9 for me.  I'd race nothing else, but might sail the 7 in a total blow for fun.  A 7 for Clare.  A 5 for the kids.  Clare would change down to the 5 if that was the difference between racing and not racing.  And comply with whatever handicap arrangements were in place.  Without fuss.

But we're building an extension....so envy it will have to be! 


Edited by sargesail - 10 Mar 15 at 10:48pm
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Do Different View Drop Down
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 10:42pm
249. Full acknowledgment of your knowledge on sailing history. While others may or may not agree with your interpretation I have no intention to comment.

The innovation I was referring to is more specifically the two new XXros in making lightweight hulls accessible to mainstream sailors that seem to perform happily under a range of rigs and crew weights 




Edited by Do Different - 10 Mar 15 at 10:48pm
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 10:27pm
Originally posted by turnturtle


Joe needs to grow up then.... And join the real world.

 
If that's the real world you live in then it's lucky some of us have found a different one.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 10:25pm
Originally posted by Do Different

Such a shame that innovation is sometimes seen as a problem, how much fresher and cleaner the air would feel if it could be embraced as an enabling step forward.
 
Surely there is a way to frame the rules so that the advent of these two new classes and one older one will empower wide range of helm weights (and possibly, ages, fitness & experience) to take to the water together for as many sailing days as possible.
 
It's a pretty ancient "innovation".  Big smile The very first popular racing centreboarder, the Canoes of the 19th century, ended up with multiple rigs, and according to contemporary sources the expense and hassle of such rigs was one of the things that killed the sailing canoe as a popular type.  Skiffs, of course, have used multiple rigs since the 1800s, as have Raceboard and Slalom windsurfers which were once probably the most popular racing classes ever seen in the sport of sailing..... and like the other multiple rig classes they are now much less popular partly because of the hassle and expense involved.
 
 
 
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