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Multi-rig racing

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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Multi-rig racing
    Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 5:27pm
Originally posted by rb_stretch

For us, it seems that it is our better sailors who are doing the rig swapping, whereas the less experienced sailors are generally sticking to single sails. This is what has brought the issue to the fore and why we are thinking about it before it becomes an actual issue, hence the enquiry as to what other clubs are doing.

Personally I'm far more tolerant of less experienced/capable sailors doing rig swapping, but my intuition tells me it is a slippery slope if better sailors are doing it because it will just reinforce the perception that you need multi-rigs to be competitive. The very same principle is used for the giving of equipment to the best sailors - irrespective of whether there is any actual advantage, people start to perceive there is an advantage in having the equipment that the best sailors use. Also better sailors should be far more capable of handling overpowered rigs.

Anyway, as the OP, I do recognise the need to be pragmatic and recognise that the actual differences are probably not as high as we might fear.  However the perception problem is a worry because this is a far more insidious risk. Still not sure what is the right answer from the debate so far....

You need multiple sails to be properly competitive in most classes anyway, particularly Lasers where 10mins in F6 and your sail is never quite the same.
Over say three seasons it makes little difference, might even be cheaper in the long run to have small sails for windy days?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 6:04pm
Such a shame that innovation is sometimes seen as a problem, how much fresher and cleaner the air would feel if it could be embraced as an enabling step forward.

Surely there is a way to frame the rules so that the advent of these two new classes and one older one will empower wide range of helm weights (and possibly, ages, fitness & experience) to take to the water together for as many sailing days as possible.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 6:23pm
Originally posted by Do Different

Such a shame that innovation is sometimes seen as a problem, how much fresher and cleaner the air would feel if it could be embraced as an enabling step forward.

Surely there is a way to frame the rules so that the advent of these two new classes and one older one will empower wide range of helm weights (and possibly, ages, fitness & experience) to take to the water together for as many sailing days as possible.


+1.
where there's a will, there is a way, even if it includes multi-scoring a series or two.

In a club where the official comedy self adjusting PY is followed to the letter, it would be interesting to see what happened if you split classes into big rig/little rig/middle rig and multi-rig.

My guess is that most people would win more series if they simply sailed more races.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 6:24pm
You're right there,I never turn up and I never win anything
Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 8:54pm
Originally posted by JimC

In our clubs evening series last year the best Laser sailor would drop from 4th to 5th if his Radial was handicapped as a standard rig, but in that particular series there was a big gap between 5th and 6th.

It seems to me, though that the real problem *is* perception. I know I always say look at the numbers to see what's really happening, but if Joe Budgetsailor perceives that Ritchie Richkid in the next berth is going to beat him every light wind day simply because RR's got a bigger rig up, and every heavy wind day because RR's got a smaller rig up, what happens to Joe's enthusiasm?


Joe needs to grow up then.... And join the real world.

I can't see the problem in sailing in multiple classes (even those with a common hull), but the series entires should be separate. isn't that obvious???😳

Edited by turnturtle - 10 Mar 15 at 8:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 10:25pm
Originally posted by Do Different

Such a shame that innovation is sometimes seen as a problem, how much fresher and cleaner the air would feel if it could be embraced as an enabling step forward.
 
Surely there is a way to frame the rules so that the advent of these two new classes and one older one will empower wide range of helm weights (and possibly, ages, fitness & experience) to take to the water together for as many sailing days as possible.
 
It's a pretty ancient "innovation".  Big smile The very first popular racing centreboarder, the Canoes of the 19th century, ended up with multiple rigs, and according to contemporary sources the expense and hassle of such rigs was one of the things that killed the sailing canoe as a popular type.  Skiffs, of course, have used multiple rigs since the 1800s, as have Raceboard and Slalom windsurfers which were once probably the most popular racing classes ever seen in the sport of sailing..... and like the other multiple rig classes they are now much less popular partly because of the hassle and expense involved.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 10:27pm
Originally posted by turnturtle


Joe needs to grow up then.... And join the real world.

 
If that's the real world you live in then it's lucky some of us have found a different one.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 10:42pm
249. Full acknowledgment of your knowledge on sailing history. While others may or may not agree with your interpretation I have no intention to comment.

The innovation I was referring to is more specifically the two new XXros in making lightweight hulls accessible to mainstream sailors that seem to perform happily under a range of rigs and crew weights 




Edited by Do Different - 10 Mar 15 at 10:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 10:48pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by turnturtle


Joe needs to grow up then.... And join the real world.

 
If that's the real world you live in then it's lucky some of us have found a different one.

I'm with TurnTurtle.  I'd also say that Average Joe's Envy of Richy Rich kids multiple rigs is likely to be rooted in Richy Rich kids, well, richness, as much as how that manifests itself.

Whereas he needs to join a real world in which he recognises value not price....

Now if we were to buy an Aero it would be with all 3 rigs:

Why - the clues in the 'we'.  A 9 for me.  I'd race nothing else, but might sail the 7 in a total blow for fun.  A 7 for Clare.  A 5 for the kids.  Clare would change down to the 5 if that was the difference between racing and not racing.  And comply with whatever handicap arrangements were in place.  Without fuss.

But we're building an extension....so envy it will have to be! 


Edited by sargesail - 10 Mar 15 at 10:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 10:48pm
Wouldn't it be reasonable to give those who use multiple rigs a separate handicap to those who just use any one of the individual rigs?  The "multi rig" handicap would be faster than the handicap for the biggest rig, because it would account for the fact that small rigs are faster in a big breeze.
 
For example, a skilled 75kg Laser sailor may be (at a wild guess) 90 seconds faster on the water if they swap from full rig to Radial in winds over 20 knots.  If (at another wild guess) you get sustained 20 knots every fifth race in a fairly windy location where you normally do 60 minute races, the "multi rig" Laser yardstick should drop to 1080. So Richie Rich gets to swap to a Radial when he wants, and Joe Poor gets an 18 second advantage in the majority of races when they are both using big rigs.
 
Of course, one can understand the point of view of those who say "don't worry about being fair, make it fun" - as long as everyone gets similar concessions. For example, boats that aren't fun to tack should get right of way. Boats that don't have spinnakers or traps should be allowed to use them without handicap adjustment.  People who don't think it's fun to beat all the way to the windward mark should be allowed to cut the race short.....Oh, brave new world, that has such rules in it. Tongue
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