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    Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 12:04pm
Originally posted by NeilB-Phantom

The point missed in the Yacht analogy is that when the conditions are such that you use the #3 instead of the #1 or reef the main your yachts handicap doesn't change.  So following the same principle if you sail an aero 9 and swap to the 7 when its windy then you should keep the handicap of of the 9 not that of the 7. 

Or if you sail a 7 usually and plan to swap up to the 9 in the light you should declare that on entering the series and take the handicap of the 9.   It'd be like a yacht getting a new bigger spinnaker part way through a series, she'd have to get re-rated to use it.


completely agree.

If you start in a Laser 8.1 or Full rig and want to change down to say, Radial, for blowy stuff, not a problem, but you get a result with the same handicap as you started out with, or you get two results in the series.

In my experience, just finishing on a windy day can get you a decent series result sometimes (or often), so there is less disadvantage in starting 'big' and having a change down option, even with the 'big' PY, than going the other way for the light stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 12:08pm
Originally posted by Woodbotherer

I think if as most seem to be saying, you're struggling to attract new participants, anything that helps ease the process is a good thing. Multi rigs are the norm in my world but of course we don't have handicaps to worry about, but in the end it all favoured the bigger folk who could hold up the biggest sail across the widest range of conditions.

This is club racing however, so if its going to encourage folk on the water that might otherwise bugger off golfing then it has to be a good thing, lets face it most are at the end of the life scale that won't baulk at a couple of rigs and at the other end of the scale they've got youf going for them and you can't buy that can you? 
So buy a big rig and stuff them. LOL

I get the argument that it should be encouraged as it promotes participation in the sport.  Just in practice i am not sure it does.  If it does is it also not fair to argue that it could be encouraging people to sail in conditions their own safety instinct would suggest perhaps it was not a good idea?  As such putting people off sailing all together?  Most people i know are are aware of their limits and changing sail size doesn't really change that.  They capsized ina  full rig Laser in 20knts, they still capsize in an radial.  The only difference is they probably wouldn't of gone out in the full rig in big winds and probably wont in the radial as well now!

Perhaps some adult sailing courses aimed at helping people with boat handling and understanding their limitations would be a better way to encourage participation?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 12:10pm
What kind of person would buy a SMOD and then buy a second (different one) just so that they could win when it windy, whilst claiming the two boats are the same? By all means buy two different boats, but race them as two different ones.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Woodbotherer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 12:30pm
Originally posted by jeffers

 

And what about the ones who cannot afford to buy a second rig..who then bugger off and do something else?


Isn't that what the GP14 class is for?

And this is really an irrelevant discussion since ninety percent of club racers buy 2nd hand anyway and that won't change, this is about making things better for the future, so one boat can cope with a range of conditions without it permanently being a streaker or solo..

If folk can afford a new boat, no reason they couldn't afford a 2nd rig later.




Edited by Woodbotherer - 10 Mar 15 at 12:36pm
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 12:35pm
I suppose the thing that concerns me about this outbreak of rig swapping is that its happening in what should be economical classes, so its making what should be the cheap end of the sport more expensive.

If a manufacturer announced a top of the range boat that would normally be sold with all three rigs, and clearly marketed as one class, three rig sizes, pick for the weather, then I'd find that a lot less disturbing. It would also be a lot less confusing for clubs.

The other thing about rig swapping is its best done on a boat with a kite, since on a single sail boat if you can possibly hang on to the big rig until he windward mark you want to because you gain so much on the downhill.

Maybe, he thinks to himself, if the RS100 stops selling it should be relaunched. Give it little folding winglets like some of the continental canoe classes have, say about a foot extra beam which would be enough to drive upwind a bit better, and play a bit with kite size so its not such a one trick pony. Play with the fitout a bit so its more of a premium option. Think about the rig sizes a bit so that they work better across the range, and bingo, a rig for every season. Call it I dunno, RS150 or something.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by Peaky

What kind of person would buy a SMOD and then buy a second (different one) just so that they could win when it windy, whilst claiming the two boats are the same? By all means buy two different boats, but race them as two different ones.

Except it's not two boats, is it?  It is just one lump of plastic in the boat park with a relatively cheap extra poles and an extra sail.

Put it another way.  If I raced an Ent., I'm not going to go out and buy a 420 for windy days,and the boat park sec. wouldn't thank me for doing it either.  But if I've got a Laser or Aero, why wouldn't I want to spend a few quid on a smaller rig and enjoy the windy days too?

Like I said above, if I started winning all the chocs as a result and it upset other club members, then I would have to accept that my two sails were regarded as different entries in the series.  In practice at WSC, however, I've never heard a murmur of complaint about our Lasers rig-swapping.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 12:44pm
I believe that the Ent, in common with many sensible classes, has class rules for storm sails!
Gordon
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 12:44pm
Another point on cost.

In the winter tyre debate, the pros often cite the fact that although there is a greater capital outlay, you are only wearing out one set of tyres at a time, so your summer tyres last longer.

You can argue the same way about sails.  While using your Radial, you aren't knackering your Standard.  All the more relevant when you think that it is precisely on windy days that your Standard gets knackered... 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 1:18pm
Whilst that's theoretically true, its also clear that people don't think like that. Almost all consumer technical equipment these days seems to be sold on low initial purchase price, high running costs.

Its interesting that, as I noted above, the RS100 ought to be a better candidate for rig swapping, but in practice it didn't seem that much of an issue even though the rigs were not readily distinguishable. I suspect that's because of the headline cost of buying the extra sail. Could be wrong of course...

Edited by JimC - 10 Mar 15 at 2:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 2:10pm
What's clear to me from this debate is that the paradigm has changed, and it will take a while to settle down.  And it will probably be horses for courses - different clubs will adopt different solutions.

Why that should be when the problem currently exists with 100s of 1000s of Lasers worldwide I don't quite understand....but there we go.
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