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 Topic: Multi-rig racingPosted: 09 Mar 15 at 4:40pm |
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That comment isn't from RS, its from someone else who says they were talking to Jo Richards and he may well have said that some clubs will lock you into the lowest handicap, based on what we do at our club, but thats simply our club rules on the matter which were put in place years ago by the Laser Fleet. aeros are separate classes same as the laser.
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Do Different
Really should get out more 
Joined: 26 Jan 12 Location: North Online Status: Offline Posts: 1312 |
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Posted: 09 Mar 15 at 4:48pm |
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For the very life of me I cannot see the reason for so much frenzy or getting all paranoid about manufacturer conspiracy to make more money selling rig choices.
BTW. Surely that's what manufacturers are supposed to be applauded for doing: making boats to suit a wide a range of conditions and sailors and make money so they can thrive and provide continuity of product. The different rigs all have different ratings. It is entirely up to Clubs to treat them as they see fit. I presume all the shouting is about series scoring? Within a single race surely they race under the allocated PY and will return as such. Of course I can see the theoretical point of a "Class" always being raced with the "perfect" rig size for the conditions having an effect on PY returns. But really, there are so many other variables affecting the accuracy of the rating system, how much difference will it make?
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jeffers
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Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
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Posted: 09 Mar 15 at 4:51pm |
So the designer says this and suddenly everyone who owns an Aero feels they need a smaller or bigger rig to stay competitive rather than the boats being treated as distinct classes? You also need to question where the designer was being spoken too. I would suspect at the Dinghy Show on the RS stand (but I could be wrong). I guess this is down to the clubs to enforce, if you have a 7 you sail a 7, put a different rig on and you get scored differently. Difficult to find the balance between getting people on the water and making sre the racing is as fair as possible.
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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Rupert
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Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
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Posted: 09 Mar 15 at 4:58pm |
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If a club allows you to sail a Wayfarer in one race and a Pico in another and count both results in the same series, then counting an Aero 7 and an Aero 9 is fine. If they don't, then not. Trying to create one handicap for all 3 boats will simply create a mess of confusion both for clubs and for the PYAG. If they want to sail the 3 boats in class racing as a "choose you rig" thing, then it really has no effect on anyone not involved, so why not?
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted: 09 Mar 15 at 5:01pm |
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Jeffers I haven't seen hoards of aero owners falling to their knees because they must have a second rig....
 Out of the 22 (16 delivered) at Lymington. To my knowledge everyone has a 7. Only 4 people have a second rig. One of which is Peter Barton who promotes the class and has been lending his boat to all shapes and sizes and a second who has bought a 5 so his daughter can sail it. That leaves two of us with two sizes and I am sailing this series with a 7 only.
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blaze720
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Joined: 28 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1635 |
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Posted: 09 Mar 15 at 5:59pm |
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All this "'He said / she said" and " I heard that ...." stuff is beginning to increasingly looking like sniping and particularly at the Aero again...
It looks like a very decent boat that is selling really rather well ... is this the real problem ? Why don't people simply ask RS or Peter B first, (who is very approachable and open) rather than give airtime to all the boring negative speculation stuff. The bottom line is YOU SIMPLY DONT HAVE TO BUY one if you personally don't like the complete package whatever it is ... Get over all this tortured angst and move on. You have real choice - why not be pleased ? ... and in the interests of balance you could try any number of other classes as well first and confirm their racing configurations before you decide .. and yes er of course I'd naturally include the Blaze family in that while you are at it (!) .... But for the record this is my own personal and very publically declared bias. Please also note it never seems to work 'sledging' other classes or products. It does nothing to promote sailing, sales of other products or general good-will. Stuff all this forum stuff ... I'm going back to my New Years resolution of minimising involvement again. There are better things to do - like actually sailing and enjoying the company of those who truly appreciate it. Mike L. PS- Last rant for some time.... with luck ! Edited by blaze720 - 09 Mar 15 at 6:01pm |
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Null
Really should get out more
Joined: 11 May 14 Online Status: Offline Posts: 745 |
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Posted: 09 Mar 15 at 6:18pm |
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Wow, that escalated quickly. But then its helped when you post stuff like that Mike. Paul quoted what was posted on another forum by an AERO OWNER. ITs hardly sledging if he picked up on something that's in correct. In fact he even said he thinks its a bad move. How is he to know? why should he speak to Pete to clarify?
My comments were not specifically aimed at the Aero. Just in General, could be aimed at the Zero, Blaze, Laser, Whatever in fact. My point remains, that Its really down to the manufacturer to decide hwo they want to sell their boat. If they want 1 boat with 3 rigs then thats absolutely fine and a strong USP, albeit the ramifications of such decision will lead to reduce crew weight and more expense, not to mention a PY which is reflective (Other than the skiffs is there a class that offers this). If they want to treat it as 3, 4 or 7 different classes then thats down to them also, i cant see any real disadvantage to this other than the confusion around system scoring. My point basically is that you are either one or the other, you cant have it both ways. Unless you think that you can.
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jeffers
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Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
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Posted: 09 Mar 15 at 6:30pm |
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Not sniping at the Aero at all.
As 3 classes it is a great idea and shows great promise. As 1 class with 3 different size sails it is a silly idea and smells of someone trying to line their pockets by trying to sell the extra rigs at point of sale or shortly afterwards. As I said it is more down to the clubs where they get sailed to Police this and force the people to sign on appropriately otherwise we will end up with another RS100 story (multiple rigs, no one knowing which rig is being used and which rig the return has been based on). Just my 2p. An RS snipe not an Aero snipe which is not helped by comments made by someone who is 'inside' RS. I had a good look at an Aero at the dinghy show. There were some bits of it I liked (now I have had a good look at it in the flesh) and some bits of it I can't understand why they have been done the way they have. Perhaps a sail will help explain it. Any Aero owner near Cambridge fancy letting me have a go?
Edited by jeffers - 09 Mar 15 at 6:37pm |
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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NeilB-Phantom
Groupie 
Joined: 01 Mar 14 Location: Plymouth-UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 41 |
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Posted: 09 Mar 15 at 11:10pm |
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The point missed in the Yacht analogy is that when the conditions are such that you use the #3 instead of the #1 or reef the main your yachts handicap doesn't change. So following the same principle if you sail an aero 9 and swap to the 7 when its windy then you should keep the handicap of of the 9 not that of the 7.
Or if you sail a 7 usually and plan to swap up to the 9 in the light you should declare that on entering the series and take the handicap of the 9. It'd be like a yacht getting a new bigger spinnaker part way through a series, she'd have to get re-rated to use it.
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Phantom 1384
Dazcat D995 |
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Chris 249
Really should get out more
Joined: 10 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2041 |
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Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 12:58am |
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Well said. The yacht also has to carry the high-wind sails and reefable rig around the course whether they are using them or not, which the dinghy sailor who swaps rigs doesn't do. The yacht handicaps often (perhaps always) take reefing and sail changing into account, whereas the handicaps for dinghies that can't reef don't. If you use a One Design rating for a yacht that has restrictions on sails and reefing kit (as some do) and then slip in some out-of-class high wind sails and reefing gear you'll probably find yourself DSQd quite quickly, and perhaps looking at a Rule 69 as well - so why do something similar in a dinghy class and expect to get no rating penalty? With respect, the claim "we must allow multiple rigs to make the sport accessible and fun" doesn't stack up that easily IMHO. It's no fun for the sailor who races a class boat that they race in class form, and then gets beaten because other people have gone out and bought extra rigs and swapped them around, and in a class like the Laser being able to switch rigs can be a major advantage. If one of the top four or five sailors at my club, for example, announced that they would swap rigs they would probably be assured of winning the club championship. The first boat I ever sailed on was in a multi-rigged class, and I've spent years racing such classes and actually created a small-rig subclass at one stage. They are great, but they also come with major downsides and it seems a bit odd when it's said that we should ignore the issues. Edited by Chris 249 - 10 Mar 15 at 8:28am |
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