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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Multi-rig racing
    Posted: 09 Mar 15 at 10:23am
Originally posted by JimC

There are quite a number of systems that upload to the PYS website, not just Sailwave so there are an awful lot of potential complications.
As a matter of interest, is not Sailwave data is by far the biggest contributor to PYS, if not, what else might we consider adopting?

While we are very grateful to Sailwave, even our experienced users are still often making errors/omissions given the range of possibilities it now offers.  While off sailing last year, I was in the box each week trying to encourage ROs to use it, but in the end had to admit it was too involved to be of interest to occasional ROs such as most of ours are.  I suspect a total re-write allowing more Excel-style editing and functionality might make it appreciably more attractive.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 15 at 11:20am
This is surely another storm in a forum teacup.  Declining numbers are a more important issue regularly discussed here and elsewhere and then when something that should allow 'more of the people /more of the time' to enjoy their sailing comes along it is seen by some as somehow some sort of threat, or rather more for those terrible 'bandits' .. or 'wimps' etc  

Looking inward all the time for 'problems' rather than outward facing towards making racing small boats more attractive again is, to my mind at leasat ,  part of the real problem and not part of any solution.  

We must become more inclusive, less cynical and less critical surely.  We regularly see otherwise fairly competent owners not racing whenever the wind rises above what are really quite modest levels in reality.  Excuses .. sorry 'justifications' are many .... Why ?  Because many dinghies are relatively over-canvassed by traditonal standards today in that aguably elitist pursuit of even more 'performance' is one answer.    So on balance I really don't see what is wrong with 'multiple rigs'.  Better than looking on from the shore, better for the relatively light' or old(er) or female for much of the time ..or newcomers etc .... or at the other end of the spectrum for the larger guys ..  It might not include 'you' at all but then you are never ever sitting it out on the shore are you ? or as likely 'needing' to go to 'B&Q' on every unsuitable Sunday etc .... Wink

Learing how to live with a multiple rig future for many classes is a 'today' opportunity that will help retention and  sailing 'inclusion' and simply is not the threat that some would have you believe.   Blimey - Lets not get perpetually stuck in that negative rut of how to cope with them on handicap !  That is simply not looking at the bigger picture. There are very many ways of managing that with a bit of imagination.  

Mike L.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 15 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by blaze720

This is surely another storm in a forum teacup.  Declining numbers are a more important issue regularly discussed here and elsewhere and then when something that should allow 'more of the people /more of the time' to enjoy their sailing comes along it is seen by some as somehow some sort of threat, or rather more for those terrible 'bandits' .. or 'wimps' etc  

Looking inward all the time for 'problems' rather than outward facing towards making racing small boats more attractive again is, to my mind at leasat ,  part of the real problem and not part of any solution.  

We must become more inclusive, less cynical and less critical surely.  We regularly see otherwise fairly competent owners not racing whenever the wind rises above what are really quite modest levels in reality.  Excuses .. sorry 'justifications' are many .... Why ?  Because many dinghies are relatively over-canvassed by traditonal standards today in that aguably elitist pursuit of even more 'performance' is one answer.    So on balance I really don't see what is wrong with 'multiple rigs'.  Better than looking on from the shore, better for the relatively light' or old(er) or female for much of the time ..or newcomers etc .... or at the other end of the spectrum for the larger guys ..  It might not include 'you' at all but then you are never ever sitting it out on the shore are you ? or as likely 'needing' to go to 'B&Q' on every unsuitable Sunday etc .... Wink

Learing how to live with a multiple rig future for many classes is a 'today' opportunity that will help retention and  sailing 'inclusion' and simply is not the threat that some would have you believe.   Blimey - Lets not get perpetually stuck in that negative rut of how to cope with them on handicap !  That is simply not looking at the bigger picture. There are very many ways of managing that with a bit of imagination.  

Mike L.



Wouldn't that kill the target audience of the Halo fleet if people were allowed to change down to a Blaze or Fire sail when it gets windy? At 70kg person will fly in Force 1/2 on a Halo....
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 15 at 1:32pm
There y'go again, straight to the negative.

Blaze720: The voice of reason, if the manufacturer embraces it why should we worry.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 15 at 1:40pm
Originally posted by rb_stretch

Originally posted by blaze720

This is surely another storm in a forum teacup.  Declining numbers are a more important issue regularly discussed here and elsewhere and then when something that should allow 'more of the people /more of the time' to enjoy their sailing comes along it is seen by some as somehow some sort of threat, or rather more for those terrible 'bandits' .. or 'wimps' etc  

Looking inward all the time for 'problems' rather than outward facing towards making racing small boats more attractive again is, to my mind at leasat ,  part of the real problem and not part of any solution.  

We must become more inclusive, less cynical and less critical surely.  We regularly see otherwise fairly competent owners not racing whenever the wind rises above what are really quite modest levels in reality.  Excuses .. sorry 'justifications' are many .... Why ?  Because many dinghies are relatively over-canvassed by traditonal standards today in that aguably elitist pursuit of even more 'performance' is one answer.    So on balance I really don't see what is wrong with 'multiple rigs'.  Better than looking on from the shore, better for the relatively light' or old(er) or female for much of the time ..or newcomers etc .... or at the other end of the spectrum for the larger guys ..  It might not include 'you' at all but then you are never ever sitting it out on the shore are you ? or as likely 'needing' to go to 'B&Q' on every unsuitable Sunday etc .... Wink

Learing how to live with a multiple rig future for many classes is a 'today' opportunity that will help retention and  sailing 'inclusion' and simply is not the threat that some would have you believe.   Blimey - Lets not get perpetually stuck in that negative rut of how to cope with them on handicap !  That is simply not looking at the bigger picture. There are very many ways of managing that with a bit of imagination.  

Mike L.



Wouldn't that kill the target audience of the Halo fleet if people were allowed to change down to a Blaze or Fire sail when it gets windy? At 70kg person will fly in Force 1/2 on a Halo....

This 85kg sailor flew very nicely indeed in a Halo in a F1/2. Anything more (i.e. top end of a 3 or above) and i would have wanted a smaller sail.

As for manufacturer support. Of course they will support it as they will profit from selling more sails (and masts as far as the Aero, Zero and Laser are concerned).

What can't be supported is Mr Jonny Q Clubsailor who sails on a budget and can only afford to have 1 rig for his boat whilst others around him pick and choose their weapons for the conditions. We have this issue at my local club with a couple of sailors and they are getting very disillusioned over it and considering leaving the sport. I believe our SC are looking to reverse the policy of allowing free rig switching in handicap series (but it will be allowed in Laser fleet races).
Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Quote deadrock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 15 at 1:40pm
Originally posted by jeffers

With boats the are designed to be reefed that is fine....none of the boats being discussed allow reefing they are to all intents and purposes different classes.

Not quite, Paul. After a competitor reefed a sail at the UK Laser Nationals about five years ago, the issue of reefing was raised with ILCA. As the rules didn't say reefing was allowed, it was technically illegal under the Class Rules. (In the '70s reefing had been accepted for high-wind races before the Radial arrived, but it had dropped out of fashion when the two smaller rigs arrived.) You'll be pleased to know that the sensible young Radial sailor was not penalised at the event, as a phone conversation with ILCA produced an interpretation that reefing was acceptable as a safety measure.

To clarify the matter, there is now Rule 27: REEFING
The sail may be reefed by rolling the sail around the mast 1 or 2 times.

The reason the rule doesn't allow more than two rolls is to avoid a dangerous amount of lee helm.


Edited by deadrock - 09 Mar 15 at 1:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 15 at 1:55pm
Fair enough Jeffers, whatever policy is adopted there will always be examples of winners and losers.

I guess it is down to Clubs to gauge which approach is best suited to the majority of their members, fleets and particular circumstances.

Sometimes I do think though that it possible to talk a small issue up into a big one. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 15 at 2:03pm
Originally posted by deadrock

Originally posted by jeffers

With boats the are designed to be reefed that is fine....none of the boats being discussed allow reefing they are to all intents and purposes different classes.

Not quite, Paul. After a competitor reefed a sail at the UK Laser Nationals about five years ago, the issue of reefing was raised with ILCA. As the rules didn't say reefing was allowed, it was technically illegal under the Class Rules. (In the '70s reefing had been accepted for high-wind races before the Radial arrived, but it had dropped out of fashion when the two smaller rigs arrived.) You'll be pleased to know that the sensible young Radial sailor was not penalised at the event, as a phone conversation with ILCA produced an interpretation that reefing was acceptable as a safety measure.

To clarify the matter, there is now Rule 27: REEFING
The sail may be reefed by rolling the sail around the mast 1 or 2 times.

The reason the rule doesn't allow more than two rolls is to avoid a dangerous amount of lee helm.

Thanks for the clarification on that.

To be fair I would never have reefed my Laser but would always drop to a radial if conditions were extreme (but would sail as a radial not a standard).
Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 15 at 2:25pm
Additonal participation is surely in the common interest for both owners and manufacturers alike.  Nothing wrong with that in my book.   I get to see people sitting on the side whenever it blows far too often regularly at my own club and elsewhere, often in nothing more than a moderate breeze, some who apparently even then think it not 'fair' that others are still out there enjoying something different.  (The irony of it !)

'More people for more of the time' is the idea and why on earth not ?  Alternative sails is not exactly a new concept either ..... different 'cuts' and sizes for many of the development classes are permitted and multiple sail sizes in one-designs such as the Laser and most racing yachts.  It has been done for ever really.  When a lot of us raced boards in the 80's and after you were partially regarded as having 'screwed up' competitively if you selected the wrong size for your weight and the prevailing conditons.

Get that alternative small/large rig if needed and simply get out there if you can whenever conditons dictate it right for you and enjoy being on the water for more of the time.   Leave the would be purists and the pedants banging on about 'other classes', PN stuff and 'bandits' if they want in their preferred natural habitat on shore and in the bar ...  Wink 

Few arguments are won on forums and for certain far less enjoyment is to be had at sailing clubs when you are off the water ! 

Mike L. 

  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 15 at 2:40pm
Originally posted by blaze720



Get that alternative small/large rig if needed and simply get out there if you can whenever conditons dictate it right for you and enjoy being on the water for more of the time.   Leave the would be purists and the pedants banging on about 'other classes', PN stuff and 'bandits' if they want in their preferred natural habitat on shore and in the bar ...  Wink 

Few arguments are won on forums and for certain far less enjoyment is to be had at sailing clubs when you are off the water ! 

Mike L. 

 

I am sure the Burghfield Bar was awash with mutterings about PNs and bandits over the weekend  Wink.
Paul
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