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The Evolution of Expense
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Dougaldog View Drop Down
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Joined: 05 Nov 10
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Posts: 356 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougaldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Evolution of Expense
    Posted: 08 Mar 15 at 5:04pm
Gordon, a spot on analysis! When I was working as an RO out in OZ, there was a very strict 'no alcohol afloat' rule applied to all of the race team boats. You got soft drinks and a nice packed lunch, seeing that the team are the 'first afloat, last ashore' it was nice to be well taken care off. Compare that with an (un-named) club in the UK who baulked at providing anything for the race team on the grounds of 'cost'! Is it any wonder that it can be hard to properly resource all the various jobs in the team!
D
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 15 at 4:23pm
'the pompous arrogant tw*ts' should pay for the volunteers! Entry fees and club subs must provide the finance to recruit, operate and retain an enthusiastic group of volunteers.

In our club a PAT who was also a b(w)anker somehow got to be running the regatta committee. We finish the day with a BBQ. Traditionally the volunteers, including the students on safety boats, get a voucher for a drink and a steak. In his mad search for a profit from the day this PAT decided that only the adult volunteers would get a steak. The teenager and student volunteers would get a burger.

In a remarkable display of solidarity the adult RIB personnel threatened to go on strike. The free steak was, in reality, a real symbol of the clubs appreciation of the volunteers input. Our friend the banker had completely failed to realise this.

We nearly lost a team of mark layers and patrol boat drives who had been in the club for many years.
Gordon
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craiggo View Drop Down
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Posts: 1810 		Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 15 at 2:28pm
I partially agree Gordon in that making the club somewhere where people want to volunteer is half the battle, however there are subsets of society who regardless of club would never volunteer. For me these individuals are the pompous arrogant tw*ts who I would rather not spend any time with and yet frighteningly not only do these people seem to be successful in their careers but also seem to be able to generate a gaggle of followers. I suppose I am a bit bitter, but then I've been brought up to get involved and be helpful and contribute rather than take everything you can and give away as little as you can, and it really irritates me that people only wish to volunteer for some kind of material benefit rather than just because it's the right thing to do.
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 15 at 11:46am
What exactly do clubs offer to volunteer...

People who volunteer often get involved with volunteering in several different spheres of activity. After time they will concentrate on those activities that :
- provide a good social experience
- demonstrate that their input is valued
- provides decent facilities/tools/equipment for the volunteers
- are well organised so that volunteers can get on with the jobs that they are their to do.

Above all - VOLUNTEERS ARE NOT FREE LABOUR! Maintaining a team of enthusiastic and competent volunteers is not cheap and requires work.

I do a lot of umpiring for team racing - do I prefer to go to an event where:
- club members provide accommodation in their own hous;
- tea and coffee are available at the umpires briefing;
- the RIBs are dry, well maintained and the motors have been warmed up that morning
- hot drinks and packed lunch are provided on the water
- the club offers the first drink as we get off the water
- a simple but hearty dinner is provided

or the event where we know that none of these will be provided.

The same can apply for mark layers, sandwich makers, race secretaries, and all the other volunteers who make an event or a club a success.

If a club has difficulty finding volunteers don't blame the volunteers. They are probably down the road helping organising a rowing regatta, a junior rugby blitz, a fund raiser for a local charity... To borrow a quite - Do not ask what volunteers can do for your club, ask what your club can do for the volunteers.

Simple things count:
- the social on the Sunday evening after the competitors have left, or the annual volunteers party
- if you are selling event branded gear do you offer volunteers a distinctive version (different colour for instance) as a gift or at cost price
- a reduction in club fees for regular volunteers
- holding a pre-event briefing for all volunteers, and an after event de-brief
...
Gordon
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 15 at 11:29am
Originally posted by Rupert

Those people may be heavily involved in their class, maybe coaching, manning the stand, serving on the committee. They may not be, but plenty of club members are doing the minimum too. The club members may have good reasons... working weekends, taking Chardonnay horse riding, whatever. Taking a snapshot and making sweeping statements not always accurate!

Fully accept this point, and I did add a bit of a caveat, it would be nice to think when they look back on life that they may have redressed the balance of contributing to the sport.  

Again - what you describe re thanks to volunteers is the case in just about every organisation.....including most Clubs I race at!  It's a bit of a human nature thing.

So I'd like to know whether some of the 'the RYA gets it wrong' posters are anti-establishment in all things, or just sailing.

I know I have a pro establishment bias....but I'm also paid (and have a very strong focus on this area in my current employment) to ask whether the organisation I work in is getting it right.

I am pro-RYA on a number of matters, I just think that to many Racing Dinghy Sailors of middle to late age, which is the Sub Group that I belong to, there is some disengagement.  I think that there was a closer link twenty or thirty years ago ... and it may be no coincidence that the RYA's executive was largely populated by middle aged racing dinghy sailors, including the late and great Ken Ellis, who raced at our club, and was always happy to share is sandwiches with us nippers.

Its a fair cop, I am increasingly anti establishment, I think it is an age thing, I hate the new houses being built up the road, and the run up to 7th May fills me with dread and anger!

Anyway our sailing season started yesterday, so I will probably be less grumpy and rhetorical for a while.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 15 at 11:29am
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

No because the other sports aren't so inherantly full of one up-manship class behaviours. As the other Sport he did was Judo, those sorts of behaviours are not allowed to perpetuate in the sport. 

Riiiiight. So human nature is completely different for sailors. 

Equipment comparisons will/are being made in all equipment sports. 

I've got full Campy, and I look down on him. He's Schimano 105. 
I look up to him, but I look down on him. He's got full Campy, but he's got some unbranded Chinese carp. I'm Schimano 105.
I know my place. 


I've never heard a single comment of that sort from racing cyclists (as distinct from cafe racers).  In fact it's very common for remarks about gear to be followed by a line like "not that it matters, if (insert club legend here) got on a tricycle he'd win".

I've heard comments like that fairly often from people sailing fast classes who were dissing slower classes. And as someone who sails a lot of old kit, I know there is the very occasional cranky guy who disses old kit in the class that they sail, but it's pretty rare in the larger classes IME.

Sadly, though, comments like that are endemic in big boat sailing. I've been aboard a couple of time when the call "sh***ter coming through" has come back, and looked up to see that the national IRC champ (a Swan) and the Bermuda class winner (another Swan) coming through on starboard. Both boats were fully kitted up (new 3DLs, etc) and those who sl*gged them off would never be able to afford them in a century or two.  It's a strange world where an immaculate professionally-maintained bit of kit that costs more than a house cops an insult, but it shows what can happen when a culture loses its bearings.

On the other hand, apparently a certain Mr Slingsby was taking out a squad as a treat when one of them referred to a little old 20-something footer from the '70s in that way. Tom apparently said, quite sharply, "some people love that boat and if you want to talk about it like that, you can get off now" (or words to that effect). That's nice to hear.

JS's tale about judo seems to confirm that you can create a culture that's not about denigrating the gear people use, which is great.



Edited by Chris 249 - 08 Mar 15 at 11:42am
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sargesail View Drop Down
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 15 at 11:09am
Originally posted by Dougaldog

Davidyacht,
well I for one would add a +1 to your comments and think them far from nonsense. Until it got dropped on, hard, there was for a while something of a trend for some of our top echelon sailors (ie, 5 ring circus types) to enter with their sponsor listed as their club, even though the sponsor was not an affiliated club. This though was just a small part of a bigger problem that is impacting on the sport. There are volunteers and then there are those who are being paid to be at the event. Talk about inequality! The RO for an event will be an unpaid volunteer, but the IJs are on a comfy deal as are those responsible for measurement. If it is a 5 ring event, it can get to the part that the competitors and many of the administrators are all doing well out of being on hand, whilst some others are giving up their own time and are often left out of pocket.
Something the RYA does badly is in how they handle this situation! They'll cherry pick a few big names, make a fuss of saying "thank you" to them, then do a global 'thanks' to the remaining rabble. They'd be far better off just doing a 'thank you to everyone' and leaving it at that, without the praise lavished on a chosen few.

But if you are one of those who just compete under the RYA banner and no not owe allegiance to a club - when DO you put something back in to the sport? (other than with your presence at an event).

Davidyacht - well done for saying what the apology merchants for the growing inbalance in the sport are too beholden to the 'top' to say!!

D

Again - what you describe re thanks to volunteers is the case in just about every organisation.....including most Clubs I race at!  It's a bit of a human nature thing.

So I'd like to know whether some of the 'the RYA gets it wrong' posters are anti-establishment in all things, or just sailing.

I know I have a pro establishment bias....but I'm also paid (and have a very strong focus on this area in my current employment) to ask whether the organisation I work in is getting it right.


Edited by sargesail - 08 Mar 15 at 11:09am
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 15 at 10:36am
Those people may be heavily involved in their class, maybe coaching, manning the stand, serving on the committee. They may not be, but plenty of club members are doing the minimum too. The club members may have good reasons... working weekends, taking Chardonnay horse riding, whatever. Taking a snapshot and making sweeping statements not always accurate!
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Dougaldog View Drop Down
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Posts: 356 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougaldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 15 at 10:34am
Davidyacht,
well I for one would add a +1 to your comments and think them far from nonsense. Until it got dropped on, hard, there was for a while something of a trend for some of our top echelon sailors (ie, 5 ring circus types) to enter with their sponsor listed as their club, even though the sponsor was not an affiliated club. This though was just a small part of a bigger problem that is impacting on the sport. There are volunteers and then there are those who are being paid to be at the event. Talk about inequality! The RO for an event will be an unpaid volunteer, but the IJs are on a comfy deal as are those responsible for measurement. If it is a 5 ring event, it can get to the part that the competitors and many of the administrators are all doing well out of being on hand, whilst some others are giving up their own time and are often left out of pocket.
Something the RYA does badly is in how they handle this situation! They'll cherry pick a few big names, make a fuss of saying "thank you" to them, then do a global 'thanks' to the remaining rabble. They'd be far better off just doing a 'thank you to everyone' and leaving it at that, without the praise lavished on a chosen few.

But if you are one of those who just compete under the RYA banner and no not owe allegiance to a club - when DO you put something back in to the sport? (other than with your presence at an event).

Davidyacht - well done for saying what the apology merchants for the growing inbalance in the sport are too beholden to the 'top' to say!!

D
Dougal H
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 15 at 10:05am
Originally posted by JimC



Doing circuit events is in itself a different kind of giving to the sport, especially if you're one of the 90% who isn't taking home the glassware. My club for one values the people who come to our open events, take the trouble to travel, bring an extra dimension to those of our class members who aren't able to travel. If you don't think that committment is giving something to the sport you need to look at yourself very hard. It sure as hell is giving something to our club that people are prepared to take the time and trouble to travel to our opens, to pay us an entry fee over their own club or RYA subscriptions and everything else. We're glad to see them and the more of these "takers" the better.

Jim, I take your point, and I would never want to discourage participation in sailing at any level.

However our sport fundamentally exists because of the support of volunteers, whether it is race officers, galley slaves, fleet captains, flag officers, people running cadets, safety boat crews, RYA committee volunteers, Class Association committees, people manning stands at the Dinghy Show, people writing reports for publicity, people sorting out the results.  I think that we all do this because we feel a need to put in what we have taken out of our sport.

When you run your local club open meeting I doubt that it would stand up financially if all of the volunteers were paid the minimum wage, let alone something that reflected the skill set required to run a good open meeting.

My point, and maybe it came across as a bit too broad brush, is that there are an element of sailors who are very keen to participate in the racing, but not at all interested in volunteering to make stuff happen.

If everybody had this attitude we would have no sport.

Given that the management of virtually all Corinthian sailing is by sailing clubs, be it club racing, open meetings or national championships, to me it seems a shame that some sailors choose to opt out of Club membership, and to my eye this is exemplified by entering competitions as RYA.

I might be wrong, but it is how I see it.
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