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Multi-rig racing

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zippyRN View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 6:16pm
Originally posted by jeffers

Plus do not forget that sailing with a smaller rig on a windy day will skew the handicap to some extent as smaller rigs can be faster in some cirumstances. I know I can get a radial Laser round the course faster in big breeze than I can a standard Laser rig due to being in control rather than just surviving.


radials are a potential bandit anyway ...  
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 7:01pm
I can't off hand think of anything else other than the Laser where it regularly happens in dinghies. Its the two classes but one class bit that confuses it.

If you consider the RS300 and the RS100 for example, the RS300 doesn't seem to have any significant amount of rig swapping going on. When it was new the two rigs were regarded as equalisation, and rig swapping was banned for the extremes of weight ranges, and severely discouraged for the middle. Even though they don't have the weight ranges now I've never heard of rig swapping, and the small rig seems to be moribund.

The RS100, on the other hand is a perfect candidate for multiple rigs as a spinnaker boat. The trouble with putting a small sail on a single sail boat, as I discovered with my project, is that as long as you can hang on to the big sail uphill you want to, because you lose so much on the downwind. With a kite boat you don't have that issue, and I always thought that was why the skiff classes, with unlimited rag and downwind sails, were the only boats that used multiple rigs much. So with the RS100 it makes complete sense to have a quiver of rigs, and select the right one for the day. However the class was always keen to establish separate identities, and it doesn't seem to happen that much. Maybe buying two sails and two masts was a bit too much?

But suddenly with the Aero we're seeing it the other way, although they are much better labelled as separate classes than the RS100 was, we're seeing at least some early adopters thinking they must have multiple rigs. Odd. be interesting to see how the class(es) settle down once people are familiar with them.

But its also true that we seem to be seeing more rig swapping in Lasers at my club than we ever used to, and even a request from one of our more mature sailors to be allowed a separate handicap for his Solo storm sail because he finds it so dispiriting to be way off the pace on the days when its storm sail or not go sailing.

I have some theories about enthusiasm for rig swapping, but that's enough of an essay for now.

Edited by JimC - 07 Mar 15 at 7:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 7:05pm
Originally posted by zippyRN

the interesting thing with 'multi rig' racing 
is that it goes on in other classes and no-one bats and eyelid  different cut  sails ( both white and  spi) , use of genoas and jibs on classes with both ... but it;s suddenly an issue with  siungle handers becasue  there is sufficient data to produce seperate  PYs  for the different rigs and  with Laser there was the promotion of the raser ladial as a seperate class  for girls and lightweights 

No, that's not why it's suddenly an issue - if it even is now. Buy a Merlin or FD and you can chose your sailmaker and a full or flat cut all within the class rules. Buy an Aero 7 and it is quite clear that it is a different class to an Aero 9 and trying to pretend it is one class is disingenuous. Does anyone think the Buzz and Spice are the same class, or the Topaz Tres and Uno?

Edited by Peaky - 07 Mar 15 at 7:06pm
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Oli View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 7:12pm
Originally posted by zippyRN

the interesting thing with 'multi rig' racing 
is that it goes on in other classes and no-one bats and eyelid 

 different cut  sails ( both white and  spi) , use of genoas and jibs on classes with both ... 

but it;s suddenly an issue with  siungle handers becasue  there is sufficient data to produce seperate  PYs  for the different rigs and  with Laser there was the promotion of the raser ladial as a seperate class  for girls and lightweights 

Major difference is that classes that aren't strict one design can have different cut sails and still be in class, what is going on here is different classes using a common hull with strict sail designs.

I would personally only use one sail on a laser or blaze or *ero and expect to be scored under that 'class'.  If I was in a solo and had choice of sails depending on weather than that too is fine (so long as class rules allowed).

If a class allows multi rig racing, 18ft skiff, then at their events you can pick and choose and their PY at least will partially take this rig swapping into account if enough or any data exists. 

The laser and the *eros are not based around this allowance in class rules.  Your club of course is open to change this to benefit those that wish to take advantage of being able to sail in a wider wind range, and of course how they implement this is up to them.  There are pros and cons to this, all discussed in the previous pages.

This isn't just about suddenly a PY issue, but it does allow it to be highlighted.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 7:17pm
Nobody ever complained when people used the small rig in the RS600.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 7:20pm
> small rig ... RS600
That's 'cause virtually no-one ever did! That's another interesting one.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 8:15pm
Originally posted by craiggo

Nobody ever complained when people used the small rig in the RS600.


I remember it being advertised as a reefing option, so part of the class and not two separate classes so why would anyone complain?

Classes and to an extent clubs have to careful how one design classes have defined themselves and their choice rigs/sails on a common hull, is it a reef or weight equalisation or is it a different class?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 8:31pm
Originally posted by rb_stretch

Assuming we let there be a free for all on rig swapping and let's fast forward a few years. The Aero 5 and 7 rig have handicaps that are very close to the 9 rig because they only get used on strong wind days. As Jeremyc points out they are faster than the full rig in strong wind days so this isn't just a theoretical thing.

Anyone who buys an Aero 7 will then find that they are completely uncompetitive with just a 7 rig and can't sail to the handicap. Their only choice is to invest in a quiver of sails to sail to their PY, but they don't have the money to do that, get disillusioned with the supposedly cheap and simple sailing and give up....

Similarly 90kg sailor buys a Aero 9, but finds that nearly everyone else sailing the 9 is far lighter and quicker in up to force 3 and can seemingly sail to the Aero 9 handicap it now has. When it gets to force 4 they change down, but Aero 9 sailor can still only just keep up. At no point does the Aero 9 sailor seem to be competitive....ditto above.




I think you're perhaps getting into a bit of a separate issue, the 'one hull suits all weights of sailor' pipedream.
If a class wants to regulate power against crew weight, as the 'equalised classes' did by controlling  righting moment, that's a faustian pact they enter into in that class.
A PY number attached to a 'class' is a different thing though. You could have separate PYs for boats that have 'correction' in their one-class racing, if people wanted to not apply those class rules in 'open' racing. I'm sure there are one or two people using the wrong wings etc in RS600s under PY, but who cares?
Like is there a different PY for the RS200 using its SRS jibstick?
In the end the PY system will cope with rig swapping as well as it copes with anything else.
The issue to me is, punter buying into a new class really ought to not be misled in terms of what's going to be allowed. It could be upsetting either way, not great if you've just shelled out for a shiny new boat.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 8:56pm
RS have been perfectly clear, it is 3 classes. Most clubs haven't seen many yet, so no real problem there yet. So far just a forum issue, then, and not a reason for any potential buyer to be confused.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 8:58pm
Some classes have storm sails within the class rules. These can be used without changing the PY. However the PY should take this possibility into account.

Personally, if a Laser Standard sailor chose to use a smaller rig then I would not change the handicap.

As a judge I have made this decision several times. The boat entered as a Standard so should be scored as a Standard.

One can always ask the competitor if he made a request to substitute equipment if this is a requirement in the SIs.

Gordon
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