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Multi-rig racing

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craiggo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Multi-rig racing
    Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 7:17pm
Nobody ever complained when people used the small rig in the RS600.

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Oli View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 7:12pm
Originally posted by zippyRN

the interesting thing with 'multi rig' racing 
is that it goes on in other classes and no-one bats and eyelid 

 different cut  sails ( both white and  spi) , use of genoas and jibs on classes with both ... 

but it;s suddenly an issue with  siungle handers becasue  there is sufficient data to produce seperate  PYs  for the different rigs and  with Laser there was the promotion of the raser ladial as a seperate class  for girls and lightweights 

Major difference is that classes that aren't strict one design can have different cut sails and still be in class, what is going on here is different classes using a common hull with strict sail designs.

I would personally only use one sail on a laser or blaze or *ero and expect to be scored under that 'class'.  If I was in a solo and had choice of sails depending on weather than that too is fine (so long as class rules allowed).

If a class allows multi rig racing, 18ft skiff, then at their events you can pick and choose and their PY at least will partially take this rig swapping into account if enough or any data exists. 

The laser and the *eros are not based around this allowance in class rules.  Your club of course is open to change this to benefit those that wish to take advantage of being able to sail in a wider wind range, and of course how they implement this is up to them.  There are pros and cons to this, all discussed in the previous pages.

This isn't just about suddenly a PY issue, but it does allow it to be highlighted.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 7:05pm
Originally posted by zippyRN

the interesting thing with 'multi rig' racing 
is that it goes on in other classes and no-one bats and eyelid  different cut  sails ( both white and  spi) , use of genoas and jibs on classes with both ... but it;s suddenly an issue with  siungle handers becasue  there is sufficient data to produce seperate  PYs  for the different rigs and  with Laser there was the promotion of the raser ladial as a seperate class  for girls and lightweights 

No, that's not why it's suddenly an issue - if it even is now. Buy a Merlin or FD and you can chose your sailmaker and a full or flat cut all within the class rules. Buy an Aero 7 and it is quite clear that it is a different class to an Aero 9 and trying to pretend it is one class is disingenuous. Does anyone think the Buzz and Spice are the same class, or the Topaz Tres and Uno?

Edited by Peaky - 07 Mar 15 at 7:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 7:01pm
I can't off hand think of anything else other than the Laser where it regularly happens in dinghies. Its the two classes but one class bit that confuses it.

If you consider the RS300 and the RS100 for example, the RS300 doesn't seem to have any significant amount of rig swapping going on. When it was new the two rigs were regarded as equalisation, and rig swapping was banned for the extremes of weight ranges, and severely discouraged for the middle. Even though they don't have the weight ranges now I've never heard of rig swapping, and the small rig seems to be moribund.

The RS100, on the other hand is a perfect candidate for multiple rigs as a spinnaker boat. The trouble with putting a small sail on a single sail boat, as I discovered with my project, is that as long as you can hang on to the big sail uphill you want to, because you lose so much on the downwind. With a kite boat you don't have that issue, and I always thought that was why the skiff classes, with unlimited rag and downwind sails, were the only boats that used multiple rigs much. So with the RS100 it makes complete sense to have a quiver of rigs, and select the right one for the day. However the class was always keen to establish separate identities, and it doesn't seem to happen that much. Maybe buying two sails and two masts was a bit too much?

But suddenly with the Aero we're seeing it the other way, although they are much better labelled as separate classes than the RS100 was, we're seeing at least some early adopters thinking they must have multiple rigs. Odd. be interesting to see how the class(es) settle down once people are familiar with them.

But its also true that we seem to be seeing more rig swapping in Lasers at my club than we ever used to, and even a request from one of our more mature sailors to be allowed a separate handicap for his Solo storm sail because he finds it so dispiriting to be way off the pace on the days when its storm sail or not go sailing.

I have some theories about enthusiasm for rig swapping, but that's enough of an essay for now.

Edited by JimC - 07 Mar 15 at 7:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote zippyRN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 6:16pm
Originally posted by jeffers

Plus do not forget that sailing with a smaller rig on a windy day will skew the handicap to some extent as smaller rigs can be faster in some cirumstances. I know I can get a radial Laser round the course faster in big breeze than I can a standard Laser rig due to being in control rather than just surviving.


radials are a potential bandit anyway ...  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote zippyRN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 6:13pm
the interesting thing with 'multi rig' racing 
is that it goes on in other classes and no-one bats and eyelid 

 different cut  sails ( both white and  spi) , use of genoas and jibs on classes with both ... 

but it;s suddenly an issue with  siungle handers becasue  there is sufficient data to produce seperate  PYs  for the different rigs and  with Laser there was the promotion of the raser ladial as a seperate class  for girls and lightweights 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sandgrounder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 2:48pm
One thing I've learned from sailing the D-Zero in 4 of the Sailjuice Winter Series (Handicap) events through the UK winter, with 25 D-Zeros entered, is that in the 3 events I sailed in conditions significantly greater than 20 knots at times, I managed to remain competitive with the larger 8.1m2 (Grey) rig, despite being relatively small at 5'8" and 75 kg (165 lbs). It should be noted that sailors of up to 100 kg have also proven to be competitive in the boat over the winter.

In the Laser, which I sailed for several decades, I would generally need to switch down from Standard to Radial rig in 15 knots+, in order to remain competitive, and would generally be quicker round the course than had I been in the Standard rig.

I am fairly certain that in the D-Zero I would not have been quicker round the course during these windy events with the smaller Blue rig, and feel that the boat rewards good technique and effective, yet simple, tuning of the rig, rather than simple physical attributes.

From what I have observed to date I would estimate that the rig switch from Grey Rig to Blue Rig in say 15 knots of breeze would apply to someone of approximately 70 kg. So from what I can see, in general the Blue Rig is suitable for ladies and youths and the larger Grey Rig is suitable for most adult males, across a large range of wind speeds. I don't believe that rig switching will become a widespread practice in the D-Zero.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 15 at 1:15am
Delated - for a quiet life !  Wink


Edited by blaze720 - 07 Mar 15 at 6:24am
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craiggo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 15 at 8:53pm
That's where Sailwave needs to improve. Currently you can change the PY from Race to race to reflect a change of boat, but currently there is no way of inserting the actual class into the race. I know the sailwave guys have looked at it, but not been able to resolve it, perhaps due to different priorities.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 15 at 8:42pm
Will the timings be sent back to the RYA as sailing the correct rig? I suspect in many cases, not. So then you get an Aero 5 in a blow being returned as an Aero 9.

I guess I'm of the "sail what you like" school, but am unconvinced by it being scored in the same set of points.
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