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Multi-rig racing

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craiggo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Multi-rig racing
    Posted: 06 Mar 15 at 8:39pm
While I can see your point to an extent, remember that there will still be smaller kids in the 5 who will struggle in the big breeze bringing the average back down. Even if you were right and the 5 handicap got faster, I'd wager that the top guys in the 5s would still be so far infront of the average 7 sailor that they could still beat them.

There is of course sense if you have a one design fleet that everyone sails the same or if you shrink the rig you still sail off scratch.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jeremyc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 15 at 7:28pm
Originally posted by rb_stretch



Assuming we let there be a free for all on rig swapping and let's fast forward a few years. The Aero 5 and 7 rig have handicaps that are very close to the 9 rig because they only get used on strong wind days. As Jeremyc points out they are faster than the full rig in strong wind days so this isn't just a theoretical thing.
Anyone who buys an Aero 7 will then find that they are completely uncompetitive with just a 7 rig and can't sail to the handicap. Their only choice is to invest in a quiver of sails to sail to their PY, but they don't have the money to do that, get disillusioned with the supposedly cheap and simple sailing and give up....

Similarly 90kg sailor buys a Aero 9, but finds that nearly everyone else sailing the 9 is far lighter and quicker in up to force 3 and can seemingly sail to the Aero 9 handicap it now has. When it gets to force 4 they change down, but Aero 9 sailor can still only just keep up. At no point does the Aero 9 sailor seem to be competitive....ditto above.



Exactly....

Edited by Jeremyc - 06 Mar 15 at 7:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 15 at 7:22pm
Assuming we let there be a free for all on rig swapping and let's fast forward a few years. The Aero 5 and 7 rig have handicaps that are very close to the 9 rig because they only get used on strong wind days. As Jeremyc points out they are faster than the full rig in strong wind days so this isn't just a theoretical thing.

Anyone who buys an Aero 7 will then find that they are completely uncompetitive with just a 7 rig and can't sail to the handicap. Their only choice is to invest in a quiver of sails to sail to their PY, but they don't have the money to do that, get disillusioned with the supposedly cheap and simple sailing and give up....

Similarly 90kg sailor buys a Aero 9, but finds that nearly everyone else sailing the 9 is far lighter and quicker in up to force 3 and can seemingly sail to the Aero 9 handicap it now has. When it gets to force 4 they change down, but Aero 9 sailor can still only just keep up. At no point does the Aero 9 sailor seem to be competitive....ditto above.




Edited by rb_stretch - 06 Mar 15 at 7:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 15 at 7:11pm
Thumbs Up Craiggo. Certainly for smaller clubs and turnouts anyway. I guess if you are fielding big fleets there is a case to be made for pedantry.

We are going a step further and scoring series for crews also, so you could helm your singlehander and crew for a mate or even tart around for one an' all and win a series, if you were good enough and in demand. Wink

Going all out for rewarding participation.

  


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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 15 at 6:59pm
In the past, many dinghies were sailed with a choice of flat sails for windy days, maybe with less roach or whatever.
Yachts still do that.
Some people will choose their spinnaker according to conditions.
So long as the NoR and SI's are clear, I don't really care, but more people on the water has to be the aim.
Has there ever been a genuine case of it ruining a series?
Any more than the vagaries of PY in disparate boats does anyway?
Or is it really a theoretical thing?

In our club, I can see it might give RS100's a leg-up in stronger winds and reachy courses if they were encouraged to use smaller sails. But only to the extent of putting them back where they were against two handers in lighter winds.

Of course it means you need to own 2 or 3 sails, but the top people always do anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jeremyc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 15 at 6:42pm
If you change rig, then you change class. The fire rig is used at our club and in wind it is faster than the standard rig on the water and every time it has been honking it has beaten full rig blazes without handicap adjustment. Admittedly, in light stuff it struggles same as any smaller rig, but how do you set the py for it or any other small rig from any class. I once came second sailing a 4.7 in a blow, beating all other lasers across the water, and trust me, I am not 4.7 sized, but it was only rig available at the time for me to use. If they only get taken out when windy then py should be lower than full rig . I daresay that if I did the same with my d zero, then I would also be faster than the full rig when its honking. Trouble is we all want to sail in all conditions, but it is banditry to put up a small rig when it is honking.
Of course I have no idea what the answer is as we all want to enjoy our sailing in whatever conditions, and not being slammed about on the full rig of whatever class we sail as we get older holds many an attraction.....

To be fair, there is one fire rig owner who is using the rig in every afternoon race whatever the conditions to try to build handicap info and I have huge respect for this, but it does not change the fact that any two rig owner of any class who only changes down in the windy stuff is playing the system , though bet they have a nicer sail than those who are over canvassed.

:-)

Edited by Jeremyc - 07 Mar 15 at 7:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 15 at 6:40pm
Originally posted by craiggo

So how do you deal with people who reef?

I'm firmly in the sail what you want and score it on helm, but then we don't really have a noticeable fleet of anything. I think club racing needs to be made as attractive as possible.

With boats the are designed to be reefed that is fine....none of the boats being discussed allow reefing they are to all intents and purposes different classes.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 15 at 6:16pm
So how do you deal with people who reef?

I'm firmly in the sail what you want and score it on helm, but then we don't really have a noticeable fleet of anything. I think club racing needs to be made as attractive as possible.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 15 at 5:18pm
The real question for me is around a series, where someone picking a rig for the conditions is going to be at an advantage over someone who has just one rig, even if it is the biggest.

I'm getting the impression that some clubs and most open series expect you to always use the same sail size. If you use a different size for an event then it is a new entry in the series. This does sound most fair to me I have to say.

However some clubs seem to allow people to swap around without penality, which surely must distort PY reporting a bit.

Finally some clubs use the lowest PY of all the sails which is kind of a half-way house.

Given all classes go to great lengths to be clear on the rules to ensure boats are in class, having 3 alternative solutions to rig swapping can't be healthy. My original fear of multiple rigs effectively pushing out the heavier sailor and/or the sailor who can't afford multiple rigs still stands. Is all of this together a good development for our sport?

Windsurfing got round the multiple rig problem by having minimum wind limits which ensured even the heavy sailors could choose a sail to be powered up with, but look where that took windsurfing!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 15 at 4:07pm
Originally posted by Rupert

I was more thinking that you could swap rigs for the weather, even 1/2 way through. I guess the trouble is that unlike 3 guys on a skiff, the weight differences in an Aero are too big compared to the boat for it not to dominate who does well.Not for normal opens, just for sh*t and giggles and a bottle of something.

With Laser events I believe if they swap rigs they get 2 sets of results. This is certainly the way that any Laser Open meeting I have attended works. For Nationals and Inlands I do not believe they allow you to swap part way (I could be wrong though).
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