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Rupert View Drop Down
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    Posted: 06 Feb 15 at 11:03am
GRF's brave new world doesn't appear to have room for pride of ownership - that would involve the boat being more than simply a tool to do the job.

So, once plastic boats make the technological jump and become as light as a feather, and as simple to sail as a bike is to ride, will they take over? They won't pull Davidyacht in, and I doubt I'll be that interested, nor anyone getting decent class racing, but what about the vast masses who currently don't sail, using the new amazing format?

No, didn't think so.
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andy101 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by davidyacht


Originally posted by Rupert

I'm sure that the rotomoulded boats were the ones which were going to change sailing for ever, weren't they? And in one way they have, as most sailing centres now use them. But for racing at adult level, they are still frowned upon. Is this because they are too down market, or simply because they don't scale up to adult sizes well? If the latter, then I'm sure it is only a matter of time before the technology improves, and grf's new type of sailing will be in bouncy boats.

Maybe it is because for many of us it is about the quality of the product, the sailing experience and the pride of ownership?
I am off skiing next week, I shall pick up a pair of bog standard knackered old skis from the hire shop, because frankly I am not good enough to tell the difference, whereas if I were buying them I would pay an anal amount of detail and read all the reviews, and probably be influenced by the branding before making my purchase.
Actually I am lying ... I have read the reviews and am influenced by branding and have e-mailed the hire shop with my requirements, obviously the air tip technology and progressive tip camber, 84 waist width are going to make me look great all over the mountain! 
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 15 at 11:35am
GRF"S brave new world is already happening in single handers, the *ero era is helping that and the old guard can stick to their solo's and deal with all the rope and sail type complication they all think they understand or pretend to at least in order to confound the newcomer.

What is needed next is the same approach in double handers.

Then if the Yardstick ever took a universal approach of equal application to all craft by measurement not class or numeric venue based lobbying all might be well in a utopian future..
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andy101 View Drop Down
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Posts: 176 		Post Options Post Options   Quote andy101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 15 at 11:38am
All mountain skis are really a huge compromise, great on the soft stuff but pretty lame on a firm or icy piste, best option is to agree with the hire shop you can change them middle of the week depending on the weather
Boots are even more important. I am also going away next week and unfortunately have two pairs of skis and 2 pairs of boots and have to decide tonight which ones to take. Today it would be the all mountain skis and soft boots but by the middle of next will probably be completely wrong. Not so long ago would have taken them all but wife and kids have asked me to leave some room in the bags for their stuff


Just like sailing really, to much choice and you are bound to get it wrong
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 15 at 11:40am
Davidyacht- unlikely you'll look great all over the mountain, you appear to hiring two planks, rather than one for starters... And anyone with hire kit stickers immediately looks like a bit of a tool. sorry mate....
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 15 at 11:45am
Originally posted by iGRF

GRF"S brave new world is already happening in single handers, the *ero era is helping that and the old guard can stick to their solo's and deal with all the rope and sail type complication they all think they understand or pretend to at least in order to confound the newcomer.

What is needed next is the same approach in double handers.

Then if the Yardstick ever took a universal approach of equal application to all craft by measurement not class or numeric venue based lobbying all might be well in a utopian future..


Your system won't be using yardsticks, surely? They are produced by the RYA. I was assuming you would have a new governing body, a new set of rules and a handicap system that only had to take in 2 hulls each with 3 rigs.
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transient View Drop Down
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Posts: 715 		Post Options Post Options   Quote transient Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 15 at 12:10pm
......Saving sailing mmmm

That might require acceptance of the possibility of drastically falling numbers over the next 20-30 years.

What's the objective of this drive? Do you know?

 ....is to increase or maintain the level of participation in sailing.

.....or is it a question of how can the sport best operate with a substantial reduction of participants.


The last scenario is most likely in my opinion, once the 40/50/60 year olds have gone from the sport. 

Accessibility to the sport is crucial (as IOC realise) if half the clubs disappear accessibility becomes an issue. The time factor, which is important these days, becomes more of an issue if you have to drive an hour there and back. Clubs need to be able to operate with a drastically reduced number of sailors. The clubs need to be more flexible and cater directly for other watersport participants.

I can't speak for ponds but I've lived by the sea all my life, the number people out on the water has increased considerably in my lifetime, the number of sailors has decreased.  Cater for these other users, target them as potential members, provide facilities for them.

This may or may not "save sailing" but it will partly "save accessibility to sailing"........who knows, some previously dedicated kayakers, wind/kite surfers, paddle boarders, rowers may decide they like the look of sailing.

.......I think it's a case of damage limitation.
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 15 at 12:17pm
Originally posted by Rupert


Originally posted by iGRF

GRF"S brave new world is already happening in single handers, the *ero era is helping that and the old guard can stick to their solo's and deal with all the rope and sail type complication they all think they understand or pretend to at least in order to confound the newcomer.

What is needed next is the same approach in double handers.

Then if the Yardstick ever took a universal approach of equal application to all craft by measurement not class or numeric venue based lobbying all might be well in a utopian future..
Your system won't be using yardsticks, surely? They are produced by the RYA. I was assuming you would have a new governing body, a new set of rules and a handicap system that only had to take in 2 hulls each with 3 rigs.

If a reliable computer driven handicap system could be produced and webbified as an alternative I'd probably sign up to that yes.

However I'm waiting to see what the current system evolves into at the dinghy show, I'm not holding my breath.

Would we need a new governing body to offer a different handicap solution? I wouldn't have thought so doesn't the Schrs still fall under the remit of the RYA, so if a drhs or ndrhs formula were offered folk could choose to use it or ignore it, but if it were mechanised as wrong as it would be I wouldn't have the lingering doubt. It would at least be unfair to everyone rather than the current selective unfairness driven by whatever forces currently do that in the current system plus new boats would get a fair crack of the whip.

Edited by iGRF - 06 Feb 15 at 12:20pm
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 15 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

Originally posted by Rupert

I'm sure that the rotomoulded boats were the ones which were going to change sailing for ever, weren't they? And in one way they have, as most sailing centres now use them. But for racing at adult level, they are still frowned upon. Is this because they are too down market, or simply because they don't scale up to adult sizes well? If the latter, then I'm sure it is only a matter of time before the technology improves, and grf's new type of sailing will be in bouncy boats.

Maybe it is because for many of us it is about the quality of the product, the sailing experience and the pride of ownership?

I am off skiing next week, I shall pick up a pair of bog standard knackered old skis from the hire shop, because frankly I am not good enough to tell the difference, whereas if I were buying them I would pay an anal amount of detail and read all the reviews, and probably be influenced by the branding before making my purchase.

Actually I am lying ... I have read the reviews and am influenced by branding and have e-mailed the hire shop with my requirements, obviously the air tip technology and progressive tip camber, 84 waist width are going to make me look great all over the mountain! 

Speaking as one who has a bunch of rotomoulded craft as well as some unique custom craft of some historical significance, I'd like to say that there can be as much quality, sailing experience and (perhaps) pride of ownership in the former as in the latter. The cheap pop outs can (IMHO) offer a similar quality of "ownership experience", albiet a rather different one. A Laser can be seen as not 'just' a Laser, but as the physical embodiment of wonderful things such as a worldwide community of people. A plastic popout like a Topper, Hobie Wave or Windsurfer One Design can be seen as a representation of the idea that sailing can be an accessible, simple, popular activity, which is why I am very fond of popouts. After all, people get excited about production-line cars, guitars, computers, bikes, etc - why can't they get excited about pop out boats?

As to whether roto boats will change sailing for ever.... well, maybe the jury is still out about whether people are just being snobby (as they were when the first Ents, Cadets, GPs and other hard chine home-built boats came out), whether we're over-rating the importance of light weight and stiffness, or whether the material just isn't right for adult boats. But isn't weight one of those things that is critical in some situations but irrelevant in others?  We've just had the interesting experience of moving from a very light boat to a boat that is (for its length) much heavier and slower, and finding that the general sailing and ownership experience has improved. In our old class people would joke and wonder about why people would sail heavy boats - now we're sailing one ourself we're seeing the advantages.


EDITED FOR CLARITY



 




Edited by Chris 249 - 06 Feb 15 at 9:14pm
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 15 at 12:29pm
Originally posted by iGRF

 It would at least be unfair to everyone rather than the current selective unfairness driven by whatever forces currently do that in the current system plus new boats would get a fair crack of the whip.

We've had a century or so of experience to prove that you're wrong. Numerical systems are NOT unfair to everyone - they are unfair to some boats and too fair to others. And the new boats do NOT get a fair crack at the whip- some of them get an unfairly good crack and some of them get an unfairly bad crack.



Edited by Chris 249 - 06 Feb 15 at 12:30pm
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