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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Tiger Trophy 2015 results
    Posted: 03 Feb 15 at 3:37pm
Yes, in that situation, the trouble is that you want to go DDW to hoist, then luff to set. While you are hoisting, where are the Lasers supposed to go? They can't go below you without ending up in a big hole in the wind, and then below the boats they are racing against. They could gybe away, I suppose, but then you may well set and gybe and then they would be in the same position.

As you say, harmony not in abundance.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 15 at 3:46pm
This was just one example, and in fairness the one that still rings in my ears... but there were countless other times where I just thought that really 'proper' asymmetric boats weren't best suited to sailing in the melee of a general handicap fleet- not without compromising on the enjoyment of yourself and those around you.  

Get a gift of a course (loads of point to point broad reaches) and you can leave everyone for dead, get a git of a course and you're generally just getting in the way!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iiitick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 15 at 4:06pm
When I did the BM in a Lark it was quite alarming when skiffs came out of the mist at us. However it would be a shame to split big pursuit races in to separate fleets, all part of the fun?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 15 at 4:31pm
dont see why people get stuck in those situations, just slow yourself down and pass behind, the asy goes off and no hole to sit in.  lesser of two evils, like picking weed up, do you stop for a second or two to remove it and loose 10 boat lengths or sail on and loose 100.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 15 at 8:48am
Originally posted by Oli

dont see why people get stuck in those situations, just slow yourself down and pass behind, the asy goes off and no hole to sit in.  lesser of two evils, like picking weed up, do you stop for a second or two to remove it and loose 10 boat lengths or sail on and loose 100.

All very well, but i've seen assy boats (and others for that matter!!) come to virtually a complete standstill while hoisting and leave you with nowhere to go but up, especially if there is someone else underneath you. Then you get taken up to asymmetric angles all because one boat can't keep himself moving because he's in flap to hoist. He could wait a few seconds for the boats immediately around him to move clear and then move up giving those behind a clear signal of his intentions and where he wants to be on the course.

That, combined with the rather erratic way boats in the mid - to back of the fleet tend to be sailed is enough to convince me that massive mixed fleets are no longer a good idea.

When you are racing such disparate boats there has to be give and take on both sides. My experience in these events is that give is not often forthcoming if you find yourself in a pack of mid- rear of the fleet assys probably because in a breeze they are a handful and they have other priorities.

If you stop your boat at a mark and then try to take me up to assy angles you will be asked what you think you're doing. Likewise if you decide to gybe onto starboard next to me expecting me to go with you the other way and in all likelihood slowing you down more than you slow me. It's just sheer bad sailing and bad planning - why do you want to take other boats with you sitting on your breeze?

Rant over :)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 15 at 9:11am
Very nice rant Paramedic!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 15 at 9:16am
Originally posted by Paramedic

is enough to convince me that massive mixed fleets are no longer a good idea.

I don't know that they are any more or less a good idea than they ever were. These events always have an element of lottery about them: its one of the reasons winning is a big deal: you need to be in the right boat and be a top notch sailor and get lucky... They're certainly not going to appeal to the sort of 'professional' attitude that likes to see as little of an element of chance as possible.

So yes, it sounds as if they're not to *your* taste at the moment. Nothing wrong with that, been a few years since I got out to them for much the same reasons. I think you can only take a certain amount of that sort of madness, which I suspect is why you seem to see classes get very keen on doing them for a few years, and turn out in numbers, but then lose the enthusiasm and not be seen at them...

Edited by JimC - 04 Feb 15 at 9:16am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 15 at 9:17am
Originally posted by Paramedic


Originally posted by Oli

dont see why people get stuck in those situations, just slow yourself down and pass behind, the asy goes off and no hole to sit in.  lesser of two evils, like picking weed up, do you stop for a second or two to remove it and loose 10 boat lengths or sail on and loose 100.

All very well, but i've seen assy boats (and others for that matter!!) come to virtually a complete standstill while hoisting and leave you with nowhere to go but up, especially if there is someone else underneath you. Then you get taken up to asymmetric angles all because one boat can't keep himself moving because he's in flap to hoist. He could wait a few seconds for the boats immediately around him to move clear and then move up giving those behind a clear signal of his intentions and where he wants to be on the course.
That, combined with the rather erratic way boats in the mid - to back of the fleet tend to be sailed is enough to convince me that massive mixed fleets are no longer a good idea.
When you are racing such disparate boats there has to be give and take on both sides. My experience in these events is that give is not often forthcoming if you find yourself in a pack of mid- rear of the fleet assys probably because in a breeze they are a handful and they have other priorities.
If you stop your boat at a mark and then try to take me up to assy angles you will be asked what you think you're doing. Likewise if you decide to gybe onto starboard next to me expecting me to go with you the other way and in all likelihood slowing you down more than you slow me. It's just sheer bad sailing and bad planning - why do you want to take other boats with you sitting on your breeze?
Rant over :)


Good rant- and I agree, but as you say priorities mean you're not always as aware of those behind you as you could be. Besides if you wait then you're already half way down the run and it defeats the point of hoisting at all!

The answer is of course that the boat isn't really suitable for small inland RTC courses- but I'll handover to Clive to tell me I'm wrong again.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 15 at 11:32am
Originally posted by Paramedic

Originally posted by Oli

dont see why people get stuck in those situations, just slow yourself down and pass behind, the asy goes off and no hole to sit in.  lesser of two evils, like picking weed up, do you stop for a second or two to remove it and loose 10 boat lengths or sail on and loose 100.

All very well, but i've seen assy boats (and others for that matter!!) come to virtually a complete standstill while hoisting and leave you with nowhere to go but up, especially if there is someone else underneath you. Then you get taken up to asymmetric angles all because one boat can't keep himself moving because he's in flap to hoist. He could wait a few seconds for the boats immediately around him to move clear and then move up giving those behind a clear signal of his intentions and where he wants to be on the course.

That, combined with the rather erratic way boats in the mid - to back of the fleet tend to be sailed is enough to convince me that massive mixed fleets are no longer a good idea.

When you are racing such disparate boats there has to be give and take on both sides. My experience in these events is that give is not often forthcoming if you find yourself in a pack of mid- rear of the fleet assys probably because in a breeze they are a handful and they have other priorities.

If you stop your boat at a mark and then try to take me up to assy angles you will be asked what you think you're doing. Likewise if you decide to gybe onto starboard next to me expecting me to go with you the other way and in all likelihood slowing you down more than you slow me. It's just sheer bad sailing and bad planning - why do you want to take other boats with you sitting on your breeze?

Rant over :)

So whilst the asymmetric hoists the laser or whatever goes high and tries to get around the front and clear ahead, may work just depends how quick the hoist is.

If they don't succeed and the asymmetric is taking them high slow down and fall behind.

Seems to me lots of people bemoan that handicap racing is for laughs yet take it so seriously when being sailed off in a direction they don't want to go, requires a bit of "grey matter application" to find a solution which is what sailing mostly is a spot of.

As for disparate boats see above, learn who and what you're sailing against and use that knowledge to make gains, force the asymmetric into foul tide early or take the symmetric higher than they'd like, part of the game.

Good polite conduct whilst racing is a must but if your racing the rules are enforced so there doesn't have to be give and take on both sides, it's a case of wrong or right, up to the people when they come in of the water as to whether they hold a grudge to any racing incident.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Steve411 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 15 at 11:58am
Originally posted by Oli

Originally posted by Paramedic

Originally posted by Oli

dont see why people get stuck in those situations, just slow yourself down and pass behind, the asy goes off and no hole to sit in.  lesser of two evils, like picking weed up, do you stop for a second or two to remove it and loose 10 boat lengths or sail on and loose 100.

All very well, but i've seen assy boats (and others for that matter!!) come to virtually a complete standstill while hoisting and leave you with nowhere to go but up, especially if there is someone else underneath you. Then you get taken up to asymmetric angles all because one boat can't keep himself moving because he's in flap to hoist. He could wait a few seconds for the boats immediately around him to move clear and then move up giving those behind a clear signal of his intentions and where he wants to be on the course.

That, combined with the rather erratic way boats in the mid - to back of the fleet tend to be sailed is enough to convince me that massive mixed fleets are no longer a good idea.

When you are racing such disparate boats there has to be give and take on both sides. My experience in these events is that give is not often forthcoming if you find yourself in a pack of mid- rear of the fleet assys probably because in a breeze they are a handful and they have other priorities.

If you stop your boat at a mark and then try to take me up to assy angles you will be asked what you think you're doing. Likewise if you decide to gybe onto starboard next to me expecting me to go with you the other way and in all likelihood slowing you down more than you slow me. It's just sheer bad sailing and bad planning - why do you want to take other boats with you sitting on your breeze?

Rant over :)

So whilst the asymmetric hoists the laser or whatever goes high and tries to get around the front and clear ahead, may work just depends how quick the hoist is.

If they don't succeed and the asymmetric is taking them high slow down and fall behind.

Seems to me lots of people bemoan that handicap racing is for laughs yet take it so seriously when being sailed off in a direction they don't want to go, requires a bit of "grey matter application" to find a solution which is what sailing mostly is a spot of.

As for disparate boats see above, learn who and what you're sailing against and use that knowledge to make gains, force the asymmetric into foul tide early or take the symmetric higher than they'd like, part of the game.

Good polite conduct whilst racing is a must but if your racing the rules are enforced so there doesn't have to be give and take on both sides, it's a case of wrong or right, up to the people when they come in of the water as to whether they hold a grudge to any racing incident.

Spot on. In some respect it's no different to class racing. It's all about knowing your opponent. In class racing, I know who points high coming off the line in our fleet, so I make sure I don't start immediately to windward of any of them. I also know who favours which gybe downwind. All useful information. Likewise, in a mixed fleet, don't start to windward of a Merlin (or most boats with jibs) as they'll burn you off in no time. And you just need to be aware and make the necessary course adjustments when you're around assymetrics.
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