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Alistair426 View Drop Down
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Posts: 201 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Alistair426 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: D-Zero vs Aero
    Posted: 23 Dec 14 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by frow3n

Which do we feel will become the more supported class? 
With higher national attendance figures etc. More boats sold and actively being sailed. Or is it just a case of the hype behind them not resulting in many sales?



...and Santa, Rudolph and the elves kicked the troll to death, buried his remains deep in the Enchanted Forest and we all lived happily ever after.

Merry Christmas to the Forum and all who sail in her!  Smile
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ex laser View Drop Down
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Posts: 725 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ex laser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 14 at 1:20pm
To be honest, if a laser had a proper carbon rig and a larger rudder there would not be the room in the market for the aero and the zero.
If the laser class does spilt apart, I would not be surprised to see these things appear.

As it stands though, we are just lucky to have two great new entrants into market.

Edited by ex laser - 23 Dec 14 at 1:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 14 at 1:27pm
I suspect both will have bigger rivals than each other before too long, the older classes have taken a while to realise they may have a problem Shocked
[/QUOTE]

? 

The older classes are suffering, but classes with momentum will endure. Its difficult to see how any of the older classes are going to compete with such bang up to date hull shapes and rigs as the aero and zero without complete re-draws. The new boats appeal to those in clubs with largely handicap fleets who want a new challenge or want just a simple boat or the chance of a new fleet. They can act as a trigger. We never had a big Laser fleet, but have 14 aeros on their way and are aiming for 20 before the season is out. 

You could take away the weight limits on boats such as the blaze, phantom etc, but would that help? 

The Melges 14 looks dated before its launched by comparison. There have been rumours of a Bethwaite boat for a long time and given their lockdown on olympic double handers its not inconceivable. I could see them trying to do a really top end singlehander, but can't see them doing the 'all rounder' piece unless they have some bit of physics up their sleeves that Dan and Jo don't.

Personally I think the time for a Laser with a carbon rig and better rudder has probably gone. 3-4 years ago certainly. It will probably be there for ever, but those mods would shore up the existing fleet. However the hull, whilst slippery, is heavy and out dated. The new boats demonstrate that in spades, so as an average club sailor would you stick with the heavily made up old dog or take the young up to date model which are becoming established?




Edited by SimonW99 - 23 Dec 14 at 1:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 14 at 1:50pm
Originally posted by SimonW99

I suspect both will have bigger rivals than each other before too long, the older classes have taken a while to realise they may have a problem Shocked

? 

The older classes are suffering, but classes with momentum will endure. Its difficult to see how any of the older classes are going to compete with such bang up to date hull shapes and rigs as the aero and zero without complete re-draws. The new boats appeal to those in clubs with largely handicap fleets who want a new challenge or want just a simple boat or the chance of a new fleet. They can act as a trigger. We never had a big Laser fleet, but have 14 aeros on their way and are aiming for 20 before the season is out. 

You could take away the weight limits on boats such as the blaze, phantom etc, but would that help? 

The Melges 14 looks dated before its launched by comparison. There have been rumours of a Bethwaite boat for a long time and given their lockdown on olympic double handers its not inconceivable. I could see them trying to do a really top end singlehander, but can't see them doing the 'all rounder' piece unless they have some bit of physics up their sleeves that Dan and Jo don't.

Personally I think the time for a Laser with a carbon rig and better rudder has probably gone. 3-4 years ago certainly. It will probably be there for ever, but those mods would shore up the existing fleet. However the hull, whilst slippery, is heavy and out dated. The new boats demonstrate that in spades, so as an average club sailor would you stick with the heavily made up old dog or take the young up to date model which are becoming established?


[/QUOTE]

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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1635 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 14 at 2:30pm
You could take away the weight limits on boats such as the blaze, phantom etc, but would that help?

No - to simply answer the question ... But maybe that is based on the wrong supposition..   (Do however keep using 'us' as your benchmarks there - we generally benefit and enquiries are rising - in our modest way we are doing fine enough).    We've seen the EPS and 300, and 100 etc arrive and find their niches but were still told they going to change 'everything' each time as well .... we and they now happily co-exist exist alongside the Solo, OK, Streaker, Phantom, Finn etc and so on as well.   Neither would I make the mistake of writing off the Laser (class and/or company) so soon and so casually.

I strongly suspect however on this occasion one of the new centre-strappers will now grow quickly and that is really not a bad thing overall.  It is now increasingly looking like critical mass may be reached very soon by one of them - and this is being done internationally in multiple geographic markets.    However even if/when it does displace the Laser in time, and as I imply that might be beneficial overall, this does not mean the singlehander market will not remain broadly based. 

The market for single-handers market is a very wide one and is likely to remain so  .....  for all sorts of reasons ... 'one-size / type does not always fit all' ....  Wink

Happy Christmas to all .....

Mike L.


Edited by blaze720 - 23 Dec 14 at 2:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 14 at 2:42pm
Mike

The blaze is a good competitive boat so thats I guess why 'we' mention it, and fully agree that a variety is healthy. Far from writing of the Laser, I said it would probably be around forever. However, I do think for people not wedded to that boat or class, there are plenty of good and indeed more attractive alternatives and the disarray with the brand has caused lasting damage.

Happy xmas.
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Posts: 665 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon1277 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 14 at 3:00pm
Hi Simon
I tried both and bought another Phantom, not everybody fits the weight limits.
Also I have to say delivery's quoted on both was very long and I know from a club members who has bought an Aero not accurate as his was over two months late.
I see Rodney is now introducing the smaller sail on the Zero. As I am sure RS have sold lots of 7's and 5'S he may be a bit late, but I do like the easy recognition with a blue sail.
Gordon
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Posts: 745 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 14 at 3:17pm
This thread is just what this forum needs.   Merry Christmas everyone.

I'm off out on my bike!  xx
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Posts: 822 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 14 at 4:59pm
so as an average club sailor would you stick with the heavily made up old dog or take the young up to date model which are becoming established?

The time may well come where they won't, but I don't see it happening yet by some way - and I can't see anything existing now, or soon ever having the depth of ownership the Laser does. For many casual sailors being able to pick up a raceable Laser for a song and, in many or most clubs be assured of other Lasers to sail against will keep it going in strength for a long time yet. More active dedicated sailors who don't mind handicap racing, or are lucky enough to be at clubs where there are reasonable numbers of the newer classes around will probably act differently. And if over time the RS Aero or D0, or whatever proves to be reasonably competitive after 15-20+ years and cheap enough 2nd hand they may finally take over from the Laser as the most numerous boat in boat parks - but I'm certainly not holding my breath. 
Peter
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 14 at 8:33pm
Originally posted by PeterG

so as an average club sailor would you stick with the heavily made up old dog or take the young up to date model which are becoming established?

The time may well come where they won't, but I don't see it happening yet by some way - and I can't see anything existing now, or soon ever having the depth of ownership the Laser does. For many casual sailors being able to pick up a raceable Laser for a song and, in many or most clubs be assured of other Lasers to sail against will keep it going in strength for a long time yet. More active dedicated sailors who don't mind handicap racing, or are lucky enough to be at clubs where there are reasonable numbers of the newer classes around will probably act differently. And if over time the RS Aero or D0, or whatever proves to be reasonably competitive after 15-20+ years and cheap enough 2nd hand they may finally take over from the Laser as the most numerous boat in boat parks - but I'm certainly not holding my breath. 

Peter, I don't disagree with that at all and as I said I see the Laser being around for ever. This forum is effectively commenting on the developments for the new boat market. The laser came along when the world was a different place and its ubiquitous presence is always going to be an argument for picking up an old boat and going for a sail. If at any point in the last 10-15 years the manufacturers had stopped milking it as a cash machine and developed a new modern rig and rudder I doubt either of the new boats would ever have been made. The success of reworked designs like the streaker, solo and supernova in recent years have reflected the ageing of the appeal of the Laser as a new boat. Whilst its far too early to say if the new classes have legs, I do think they have they have let the cat out of the bag with very light hulls and responsive modern rigs bringing corresponding leaps in performance. 
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