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    Posted: 22 Dec 14 at 10:47am
Originally posted by sargesail

Originally posted by Andymac

Originally posted by Rupert

If they hit the wind shadow, then they are slowed because you are there, and have no right to sail higher, as far as I'm concerned.

Ditto Rupert.
There is a previous thread, first posted 30/11/13 titled 'PROPER COURSE'.
The crucial issue identified, was the wind shadow effect, which does not translate to an entitlement for the leeward boat to luff up.

I am still not convinced on the wind shadow point.  And won't be until I see some Case Law that shows that:

Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in
the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term.

Also extends to the effects generated by the other boat.

Here though I think that if the boat coming from clear astern has dived to leeward because of the luffing of the windward boat, and then returns to a course approximating to that which he was sailing before then this is proper course territory.
Sarge,

I think you might be being blinded to the principle by the evidential difficulties of proving a protest.

I think it's pretty indisputable that if a boat, sailing her proper course sails to leeward of another boat, then experiences reduced wind strength as a result of the wind shadow of the windward boat and sails a hotter course in response to the lessened wind strength, then, provided that  there has been no change in the speed or direction of the true wind, she is sailing higher than the course she would have been sailing 'in the absence of the other boat', that is, she is sailing above her proper course.

So much for the principle.

In practice if the leeward boat comes into a protest hearing and says any of the following:
  • the true wind dropped and my apparent did not drop as a result of sailing in the wind shadow;
  • the true wind shifted;
  • I decided that the course I was sailing before I became engaged was too low and was not the course to finish fastest, and while in the lee of the other boat, I adopted a hotter course because I thought that would finish fastest;
  • I saw a puff to windward and decided to hot up and sail towards it;  or
  • the dog ate my homework,
It might be a bit difficult to prove that there wasn't a 'new' proper course that she was sailing.
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 14 at 11:24pm
Originally posted by rb_stretch

Sounds like this is not entirely clear from the last two answers.


Reading the aforementioned thread it seems that if the asymmetric boat had gone into my wind shadow then they have no right to call me up. However if they call me up as soon as they get overlap ie. not yet in the wind shadow, then they can call me up. That's a difficult call to make on a course with a very gusty wind and therefore the asymmetrics are up and down many times on a leg.

Seems the only course of action is to defend to leeward using rule 12, forcing the asymmetric boat to windward where you can luff them using rule 11. That should be interesting with the bowsprit waving around your stern.



And that's a neat illustration of why the wind shadow thing is silly.  The now overlapped leeward boat that has chosen to go below can return to a proper course at any stage.  It could certainly (if nothing else has changed) sail as high as it was before bearing away to go below windward.

The only debate could be around whether that proper course could be higher in the lighter breeze caused by your windshadow.  But how could it actually know whether it was in windshadow or whether the wind had just dropped.

I'll agree that the case at Protest is easier if it can argue that it hardened up before reaching the windsahdow.....but that's not quite the same thing.
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Posts: 742 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 14 at 11:21pm
Originally posted by sargesail



Here though I think that if the boat coming from clear astern has dived to leeward because of the luffing of the windward boat, and then returns to a course approximating to that which he was sailing before then this is proper course territory.


What I think they were doing was to soak down in the gust and then come above the direct course to really heat up the boat to punch through the wind shadow - in effect they would not have to do it if another boat wasn't there.


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Posts: 742 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 14 at 11:14pm
Sounds like this is not entirely clear from the last two answers.


Reading the aforementioned thread it seems that if the asymmetric boat had gone into my wind shadow then they have no right to call me up. However if they call me up as soon as they get overlap ie. not yet in the wind shadow, then they can call me up. That's a difficult call to make on a course with a very gusty wind and therefore the asymmetrics are up and down many times on a leg.

Seems the only course of action is to defend to leeward using rule 12, forcing the asymmetric boat to windward where you can luff them using rule 11. That should be interesting with the bowsprit waving around your stern.
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 14 at 11:05pm
Originally posted by Andymac

Originally posted by Rupert

If they hit the wind shadow, then they are slowed because you are there, and have no right to sail higher, as far as I'm concerned.

Ditto Rupert.
There is a previous thread, first posted 30/11/13 titled 'PROPER COURSE'.
The crucial issue identified, was the wind shadow effect, which does not translate to an entitlement for the leeward boat to luff up.

I am still not convinced on the wind shadow point.  And won't be until I see some Case Law that shows that:

Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in
the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term.

Also extends to the effects generated by the other boat.

Here though I think that if the boat coming from clear astern has dived to leeward because of the luffing of the windward boat, and then returns to a course approximating to that which he was sailing before then this is proper course territory.
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 14 at 9:42pm
Nothing to stop the asymettric boat sailing below their normal course to gain an overlap and then coming back up to it though.



Here's how I see it... Black line being the two sail boat, ignoring the luffing match before hand.
Blue.
Blue boat was sailing hotter angles before the boats meet, continues sailing hotter angles afterwards. Legitimate, and the common situation.

Green Line
Green boat was sailing on rhumb line before the boats met, and once she gained an overlap sailed on the new rhumb line, which was higher than the old one. I'd say legitimate. Green is on a proper course for the mark. The fact that she was sailing below a proper course for a while doesn't matter, there is no obligation to sail a proper course.
Red Line
The red boat was sailing on the rhumb line, went deep then pointed up when they gained the overlap but went back to the original rhumb line when clear ahead with clear air. Not legitimate. Sailed above her proper course for the mark whilst overlapped.



Edited by JimC - 21 Dec 14 at 11:13pm
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 14 at 9:40pm
Originally posted by Rupert

If they hit the wind shadow, then they are slowed because you are there, and have no right to sail higher, as far as I'm concerned.

Ditto Rupert.
There is a previous thread, first posted 30/11/13 titled 'PROPER COURSE'.
The crucial issue identified, was the wind shadow effect, which does not translate to an entitlement for the leeward boat to luff up.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 14 at 8:11pm
If they hit the wind shadow, then they are slowed because you are there, and have no right to sail higher, as far as I'm concerned.
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Posts: 742 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 14 at 7:25pm
Originally posted by JimC

Seems reasonable rule wise. Andy & Jo was it?

An interesting one because the two boats are near enough level rating, but you're quicker upwind and they're quicker downwind, so you are probably racing for a place if you can keep them behind as its normally a downwind finish.





Indeed, in actual fact I think what happened was they got a gust which allowed them to accelerate and bear away (not the Albacore's strongest point), but on hitting our wind shadow they probably needed to sail higher again, hence the situation. It was a very broach reach so we were heading for the mark throughout the manoeuvre.

And you are right that downwind if we can hold someone behind, we do and have held places, hence the interest in defending well within the rules.


Edited by rb_stretch - 21 Dec 14 at 7:29pm
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 14 at 7:19pm
Seems reasonable rule wise. Andy & Jo was it?

An interesting one because the two boats are near enough level rating, but you're quicker upwind and they're quicker downwind, so you are probably racing for a place if you can keep them behind as its normally a downwind finish.



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