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    Posted: 06 Nov 14 at 9:19pm
Originally posted by Oli

So none of you think, after as much debate about pys and that they're unfair etc etc, that if during a series a competitor switches rigs in a laser or aero that you've been competing with in a one design format it's isn't cheating?  It's the same as switching boats! IF the series follows the sailor fair enough but if it doesn't then it's cheating. So yes guilt, maybe that's the problem then, I expect people to play by the rules when racing, and that includes sportsmanship and gamesmanship, especially important ina self governing sport.  I can understand in a class where multi rigs are allowed under the one class like a 12 foot skiff but that's not what aero or laser etc are producing here.

Ok, so you are sailing a wayfarer, RS 600, vision etc, with a full sail handicap, your down the club and it's blowing, so you reef down. Handicap is the same. You now have a 9 which you have entered at the 9 handicap figure. It's blowing and you reef down by dropping to a 7 but off a 9 handicap........So what's the difference?

In club handicap racing just makes sense provided you stick to the core 9 handicap. 

Obviously if you are entering a class race event specifically at that sail size then you sail in class.


Edited by SimonW99 - 06 Nov 14 at 9:20pm
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 14 at 9:32pm
Exactly Simon- and no I don't consider it cheating for a Laser sailor to reef down to a radial rig, not in a poxy club race where only the top 10% are seemingly boverred about the series results.

The last big event I did (100 entries) the series results weren't even uploaded to the internet, but for the top 30 or so of us who were interested, they were pinned to a noticeboard.
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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 14 at 9:51pm
a wayfarer has reef points so is part of the class.

If your changing down a class / rig to reef from a 9 to a 7 say then you've started the series in the 9 and accept that the 9'is the boat you've entered and should race unless you have reef down again, but you would have to state that it's as a reefing exercise and have that accepted by your fellow racers. Same if you start the series ina 7 because it's too windy for the 9. 

But what has been suggested isn't reefing.  What has been put forward is that when it goes light a person of 7 rig size decides to add area up to a 9.  Ok you can call it a reverse reef but in reality what should happen is that person is classed as racing a nine But has reefed down to a 7.  

What if it's one of the top 10% that's doing it in the "poxy" club race, very patronising calling it that? So maybe only the top care but then why do others show up? I know we've got a lot of new comers to racing that joined the main fleets this year, they know they won't win individual races but they care about their own results within the fleet and actually overall they perform well because they do put in a lot of races in a series. Great reinforcement to their commitment.

If we could all have 100 plus entries to events I'm sure we'd all be amazing sailors and wouldn't care about club racing, but as it stands it's what the vast majority of racing is so perhaps we should all take more pride in it and treat it with more respect and try and play as fairly as possible? Might even encourage others to join in.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 14 at 10:08pm
I am not suggesting a choose your weapon approach. Just in club racing you choose your handicap and have to stick with it, but reducing sail is good seamanship, so you suffer the tougher PY rating even with a smaller sail.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 14 at 10:13pm
But with reefing you are leaving the mast the same, just tying down some of the sail - that is totally different to swapping the whole rig out. And, as Oli says, can't happen in reverse. Would you be happy for a wayfarer to put on a taller mast and bigger sail in the light stuff and still be called a Wayfarer and count for the same series with a handicap which has been set in all wind conditions?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 14 at 10:21pm
How they reef isn't really relevant and if the wayfarer were larger it would have a higher PY because it was increasing potential performance. Keeping the higher PY and reefing down only is no great advantage. Anything that persuades more people to go out when the weather is a bit stronger is a good thing in my book. It's bad enough that everyone decides based on wind guru and the like. At least if you went to the club and found it a bit puffy, you may still go out ' reefed'  . Sailing is in a big decline, so needs more flexibility especially in handicap fleets. 

Offshore keelboat racing wouldn't exist if you couldn't reduce sail , but you are always rated on max sail area. Why should dinghies be different.


Edited by SimonW99 - 06 Nov 14 at 10:22pm
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 14 at 11:00pm
Originally posted by SimonW99

Sailing is in a big decline

Though I totally agree with the idea that we should not build obstacles to participation, is the above statement evidence based?  

Sure, there are places where sailing is not thriving, but by I see a lot of activity at Hayling, Warsash, Lymington and Salcombe, and those are places I see with my own eyes when travelling with work.  

I read from Y&Y reports that inland clubs like Lowton, Blithfield, Hollowell, Frensham are thriving.  I know these are a handful of clubs, but there are plenty of other successfull clubs, so what are they doing right that others are doing wrong?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 14 at 11:12pm
It's not rig swapping. It's class swapping.

I'm happy for anyone to do that as much as they like, but it should count as seperate entries, just like doing some races in a Phantom and some in a Blaze.
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Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 14 at 12:26am
You can have all the moral high-ground you like, but it won't stop your Aero PY being distorted by people rig-switching in series at the clubs that allow it and in one-off races.  

The only way you will be sure not to be disadvantaged on PY is by using the biggest rig you can cope with on the day.  I guess that '5' sailors in '9's could even be into bandit territory in a F.2.  But that's the same as a couple of hot juniors cleaning up in dad's RS400 in the light stuff, for example, as happens.  Sickening ain't it?  Smile
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 14 at 12:57am
There seems to be a difference between a Wayfarer sailor and a big rig Laser sailor who uses a Radial in big breeze. The Wayfarer's handicap is going to reduce marginally to account for the fact that the boat has the advantage that it can be reefed, and the fact that it can carry a kite but doesn't have to. The performance of the reefed Wayfarer will also be reduced by the fact that reefing is normally less efficient than changing down to a complete smaller rig.

In contrast, isn't the full rig Laser's handicap going to be increased marginally to allow for the fact that club sailors often tip it in in strong winds? And putting on a Radial rig may well be much more efficient than reefing down, since you don't have a bag of reefed dacron on the boom or the windage of a naked topmast. 

There would also be a fair few sailors like me, who are really too light to sail the big rig all the time. We therefore get an advantage over "proper weight" big rig sailors in light winds. If we stick to the big rig then we lose out in the big breezes so it's pretty fair. However, if we switch to the Radial in strong stuff we can then get an advantage over the "proper weight" big rig sailors in high winds as well.

The guy who swaps Laser rigs would therefore have an advantage over both the Wayfarer sailor and a Laser sailor with just one rig, wouldn't they? They'd also have an advantage over the person who sails a class that changes rig up and down as a matter of course and is handicapped for that.

If you're just switching to a small rig for fun then why bother to get your result recorded in the points system under the big rig handicap, when that gives you an advantage over the people who stick to the one rig? If sailor A changes to a Radial "just for fun", why can't I miss out the last few hundred metres of the beat so I get to spend more time reaching "just for fun"? And if people can change rigs and still count the points they earn in a race, why can't I use a Classic Windsurfer One Design in strong winds and a big rig Laser in light stuff and still count the points I earn on each type?
After all, it may be more fun for me.
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