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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: PY Inland vs Sea
    Posted: 28 Oct 14 at 10:09pm
I've never played golf at all, but it appears that golf's approach to equipment is so different to sailing's approach that it's hard to use the same approach to handicaps. Golf gear is highly restricted, in terms of both performance and dimensions*. As Rupert said, it seems that golf equipment is akin to a single class (loose OD or restricted development) whereas dinghy handicap fleets often include a huge range of designs. 

Down here in Oz, it's the norm to have personal handicaps and there are scoring programs that do the work automatically so they create PH results at the same time that they create yardstick results. No extra work is required. Personal handicaps seem to work really well in terms of giving more people the chance to feel satisfied. Bizarrely, though, most yacht racing down here is done with personal handicaps only, which means that being consistently mediocre is often the best way to "win".


* yes, the magazine ads claim that buying a new set of clubs will radically improve performance, but stats indicate that average performance hasn't actually improved much, if at all, over the years.
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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1635 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 14 at 2:45pm
At BSC each week personal handicaps are re-calculated ... automatically.  They are then posted in time for the following weeks race.

Might not be for the purist or confirmed coffee cup collection obsessive of course.  But it really does work and encourages newbies and many more simply to try harder.   Many more have a chance of winning and it is the best recruiting method (for 'regular' racing) out there.  Want bigger fleets ?  Really sure ?  I'm guessing and speculating but clubs that do this regularly will survice a lot more vigorously than those who stay ultra-traditonalist.

Bottom line is that we all need to encourage newcomers - worth a try surely ?  There are plenty of races out there for 'level' (or not so level) racing anyway even if 'level' racing handicaps are sometimes imperfect.

Mike L.
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Posts: 267 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oinks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 14 at 8:26pm
and it is the best recruiting method (for 'regular' racing) out there...

I have raced regularly at BSC for years...I don't see a huge amount of evidence of regular Weds evening sailors migrating to Sunday's racing.
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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1635 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 14 at 11:05pm
I have raced regularly at BSC for years...I don't see a huge amount of evidence of regular Weds evening sailors migrating to Sunday's racing.

Might be worth looking around you a little bit harder ... when you make it.
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transient View Drop Down
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Posts: 715 		Post Options Post Options   Quote transient Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 14 at 10:55am
Originally posted by transient

Originally posted by sargesail

Slow boat: Boatspeed 4 knots.  Tide 2 Knots. 1NM against the tide = 30 minutes.</span>
With the tide = 12 minutes.  Race time: 42 minutes.
FAst boat: Boatspeed 5 knots.  Tide 2 knots.  1Nm against the tide = 20 minutes!!!
With the tide = 8.57 decimal minutes.  Race time 28.57 decimal  minutes.
Sail it non-tidal - 2 NM for slow boat in 30 minutes.  The slow boat is 12 minutes (40%) slower in the tide!  2NM for the fast boat  takes 24 minutes - it's only 4.57 decimal minutes slower (19%) in the tide


Yes that's the long and the short of it, I did an article a few years ago explaining all this, blowed if I can find it now. With a few more examples it becomes clear that the speeds form an exponential curve, the faster the boat the less effect it has,
Here on the Sussex coast it's round the cans in a tidal flow of between 1 and 3 knots, we're effectively going backwards and forwards through the tide.




I found it so I'll post, it expands on sargesails maths.

A simple chart demonstrating the figures for hypothetical water vehicles travelling with and against tide.

Vehicles travel 10 NM against 1 knot of tide. They then turn around and travel 10 NM back with tide to their origin.

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Posts: 267 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oinks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 14 at 1:14pm
Might be worth looking around you a little bit harder ... when you make it.

I'm there most Sunday's and I can't immediately think of anyone who races regularly and who graduated from racing in Wednesday's personal handicap race. And the notion that that format encourages more people to take part...well I'm fairly certain that years back, before it was personal handicaps, the race attracted similar numbers. One of our annual races used to be a personal handicap pursuit but reverted back to PY as it didn't prove popular. Personal handicapping may have a place - fine for our Weds nights - but I don't see that it has brought any significant numbers of regular sailors to our Sunday racing and I think personal handicapping on any greater scale at the Club would risk damaging a relatively healthy racing scene at BSC and a reputation for being a serious racing club.
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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1635 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 14 at 2:36pm
Oinks

I think we mostly want the same thing here - more people racing on ANY day of the week.

Personal handicap does work at BSC and is proven, there is hardly an imaginable argument that it is not.  Now if the challenge is to increase the attractiveness of racing on Sunday, where we can see a growing challenge is the real problem.  So what should be proposed for the future is the question ? 

More of the same, a model that is arguably in decline and less attractive to newcomers to racing, will not turn things around at BSC or any other club in the view of a great many.  The 'good old days' will not return any time soon and the sport at club level has to adapt.  'Open' racing in fleets is still there in abundance for those who want that 'fix' anyway - it is simply not a case of 'either /or'.

The club model might have to be a bit different in the future.  Increasingly in handicap fleets with a good smattering of alternative racing formats, including a higher proportion of personal handicapped races on weekends as well as in those Summer Wednesday evening ones .....  Class Open meetings and Championships for the really 'keen' of course but you might need to be prepared to travel a bit more.   

Frankly potential  'might be racers' don't worry a jot about 'club reputation' - they want an enjoyable time, sociable company, often family involving, good surroundings and a bit of a sailing based challenge.  It is a hobby, past-time and diversion amongst many possible from the daily grind for the majority – some may well become the ‘classic’ Sunday racers as well in time, but you have to put yourself in their shoes to understand why many do not persist  beyond the ‘newbie’ or ‘occasional’  stage. 

Sailing clubs do not have to change ... but those that do will be more likely to survive and prosper.  They really can appear less than inclusive or welcoming, despite what any of us might think.   Standard racing formats can appear stiff, rigid and ‘newbie’ unfriendly.  Nobody is suggesting the abolition of ‘standard’ racing btw ! There are many things clubs can do to encourage – but it might need a few ‘old guard’ ideas being shaken up.

CU there .....  on Sunday  Wink

Mike L.
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 14 at 3:18pm
We found at Hunts that the success to Sunday racing is:

1) Where a class has fleet status get the fleet captains to go around and speak to people, gently badgering them to get their boats out on the water.

2) For PY racing just encourage people out. Let them know that the racing is as much about being out on the water and having a sail as competing to be first. There are always battles to be had throughout the fleet regardless of the relative PYs of a boat.

3) Get the kids out there. They are the future of any sailing club.

4) Hold training sessions and racing clinics, wha seems to stop a few people from racing is the fear of getting it wrong or making an idiot of themself on that water. 

Just a few ideas.....
Paul
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sargesail View Drop Down
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 14 at 4:35pm
Originally posted by transient

Originally posted by transient

Originally posted by sargesail

Slow boat: Boatspeed 4 knots.  Tide 2 Knots. 1NM against the tide = 30 minutes.</span>
With the tide = 12 minutes.  Race time: 42 minutes.
FAst boat: Boatspeed 5 knots.  Tide 2 knots.  1Nm against the tide = 20 minutes!!!
With the tide = 8.57 decimal minutes.  Race time 28.57 decimal  minutes.
Sail it non-tidal - 2 NM for slow boat in 30 minutes.  The slow boat is 12 minutes (40%) slower in the tide!  2NM for the fast boat  takes 24 minutes - it's only 4.57 decimal minutes slower (19%) in the tide


Yes that's the long and the short of it, I did an article a few years ago explaining all this, blowed if I can find it now. With a few more examples it becomes clear that the speeds form an exponential curve, the faster the boat the less effect it has,
Here on the Sussex coast it's round the cans in a tidal flow of between 1 and 3 knots, we're effectively going backwards and forwards through the tide.




I found it so I'll post, it expands on sargesails maths.

A simple chart demonstrating the figures for hypothetical water vehicles travelling with and against tide.

Vehicles travel 10 NM against 1 knot of tide. They then turn around and travel 10 NM back with tide to their origin.


Cool Transient.  And of course the real thing to jump out is that it is the displacement speed/planing speed jump that really makes the difference.  It explains, for example, why even a moderately well sailed Musto Skiff cleans up on handicap if you don't adjust for tide when racing against 400s and slowers.

Especially as both our versions assume a reaching course - that is to say no tacking and no assym angles downwind.  When you look at VMG to windard in tide you see when the slwer boats really get killed.
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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1635 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 14 at 5:05pm

Hi Paul

BSC has goodish numbers by any standard but the Sunday numbers are at a lower level than a few years back .... to give context.  It is a relative numbers problem.  

The club is a large one but Sunday racing is not doing as well as Wednesday evening racing (when we can get between 70-90 boats on the water) Recently Barts Bash was also, I think, supported locally by something like 125ish – one of the very largest.  

So the people are already within the club but many, possibly the less vocal majority, don't appear to find normal Sunday fleet racing as attractive as personal pursuits on Wednesday evenings or even Barts Bash.    

The approach I'm suggesting is to make Sunday hopefully more attractive for them by periodically running the format they already prefer.   Say once a month on Sunday at first.  Much easier to persuade them to try their preffered style of racing first .. but on a different day.   Should then be easier to 'encourage them' to occasionally try 'fleet' racing if they are there in the first place.   The rest is good fleet captain stuff etc as you say.  

Members clubs are obviously for members – all of them.  Would it be too much of a sacrifice for the 'die-hards' though ?  Wink

Mike L.

PS - off thread of course so enough said off on this tangent ...  but decent breeze forecast for the weekend so mabye we will be back on subject again soon ! 




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